From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: tutorial or guidebook text for some complex topics Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:51:27 -0700 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1161723152 18544 80.91.229.2 (24 Oct 2006 20:52:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 20:52:32 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 24 22:52:26 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcTFd-00063n-5r for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:51:58 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcTFc-00088n-MW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:51:56 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1GcTFL-00087o-6K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:51:39 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1GcTFK-00087S-G6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:51:38 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcTFK-000876-74 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:51:38 -0400 Original-Received: from [141.146.126.228] (helo=agminet01.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.52) id 1GcTFK-0003Ar-57 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:51:38 -0400 Original-Received: from rgmsgw01.us.oracle.com (rgmsgw01.us.oracle.com [138.1.186.51]) by agminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id k9OKpYmP003076 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 15:51:35 -0500 Original-Received: from dradamslap (dhcp-amer-whq-csvpn-gw3-141-144-83-3.vpn.oracle.com [141.144.83.3]) by rgmsgw01.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.2.4) with SMTP id k9OKpXCK009150 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 14:51:34 -0600 Original-To: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Whitelist: TRUE X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:61125 Archived-At: Someone knowledgeable can speak to that (I'm not a lawyer), but I doubt it. I have offered code previously, explaining that it was created outside of work (even years before I was employed), but that is not good enough. We do not need papers from Oracle for work that you did before starting to work there. However, if you had other employers at those times, we may need disclaimers from them. The employer that is relevant to a given piece of work is the employer you have at the time you do the work. That was precisely the case that you reviewed a couple of years ago. The code in question was the fit-frame stuff, which was written before my current employment. However, you requested changes to that code (e.g. renamings), and then you stated that because I had made those changes I needed papers from my current employer. The need for previous-employer signoff was not mentioned at that time, IIRC. In any case, I'm sure you'll never get papers from my previous employers (most of the companies were either bought or went out of business). Some of my code was written decades ago (several employers ago), but I have made improvements to it as the years have gone by, including recently - and that apparently means my current employer would need to sign. I have always worked, and I've coded Emacs for decades - outside of my work. But you will never get a past employer to sign a disclaimer, and my current employer won't do that either. FWIW - I am willing to contribute my code. I believe that Oracle does not care if I contribute - my Emacs code has no relation to my job. IIUC, GNU will not accept a contribution without Oracle signing a disclaimer. Oracle refuses to sign. And when I become no longer employed by Oracle (after I win the lottery), the situation will apparently not have changed. And if, after my employment at Oracle is finished, I update code that I am writing now, GNU will want papers from the next employer too. I understand why GNU adopts this position, BTW. My understanding is that Oracle's unwillingness to sign is not motivated by any desire to lay claim to my intellectual product in this area, but because of some potential or perceived (though inarticulated) risk to Oracle. My guess is that the legal department sees only possible risk and no gain - better safe than sorry. (GNU also sees possible risk, but with presumably some gain.) My managers up to the VP level are not opposed to my contributing, but the VP will not sign the disclaimer because the legal department advises him not to. I imagine that this situation is not unique to me, and that's unfortunate. Fortunately, there are others who are in a different situation. This was your position, BTW: You should not write any code, or any text for manuals. It is ok to suggest ideas *in the abstract* because they are not copyrightable. As long as you can't get a disclaimer, I have to ask you to please NOT post Emacs patches. If you do, we have to be careful not to read them. I've respected that. On the bright side, any ideas I suggest can no doubt be implemented by Emacs developers in a better way than I have implemented them. And others can play with my code, use its features as inspiration for better features, and perhaps feed those ideas and implementation into Emacs. There are many ways to contribute, and my code is not necessarily the best contribution I can make anyway.