From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Info tutorial is out of date Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 22:03:14 -0700 Message-ID: References: <200607180440.k6I4eOTi017515@jane.dms.auburn.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1153199045 23214 80.91.229.2 (18 Jul 2006 05:04:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 05:04:05 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 18 07:04:02 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2hkY-0005tP-CF for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 07:04:02 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2hkX-0000Wt-UO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 01:04:01 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2hkF-0000Uu-Gv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 01:03:43 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2hkE-0000Ub-MQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 01:03:43 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2hkE-0000UY-GV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 01:03:42 -0400 Original-Received: from [141.146.126.228] (helo=agminet01.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1G2hn3-0007AK-18 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 01:06:37 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsmt250.oracle.com (rcsmt250.oracle.com [148.87.90.195]) by agminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id k6H8YE0T004157 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 00:03:41 -0500 Original-Received: from dhcp-amer-whq-csvpn-gw3-141-144-80-94.vpn.oracle.com by rcsmt251.oracle.com with ESMTP id 1579695781153198995; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 23:03:15 -0600 Original-To: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200607180440.k6I4eOTi017515@jane.dms.auburn.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 X-Whitelist: TRUE X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:57244 Archived-At: Nonetheless, some of the suggested changes that Drew made are good ones. The topic of invisible text is confusing I do not see what is confusing about it. It has been claimed that it is not very useful. But it really is, for people using Info from within Emacs. The fact that quite a bit of text appears apparently out of nowhere when yanking, printing or writing to a file can be very confusing to people (I still quite often get surprised by it and I can only imagine how confusing it can be for less experienced users). The node explains to people why that happens and how they can see exactly what they are going to yank, print or write to file by temporarily making all text visible using visible-mode. And the relation to Info is? This is useful knowledge, not just for Info, but for other Emacs buffers with invisible text as well. To the question "What does it have to do with *Info*?", you seem to have answered: nothing; it's not Info-specific. In that case, it doesn't belong in an Info tutorial. It sounds like an attempt to explain an Emacs invisible-text gotcha. Put it in the Emacs manual where invisible text is discussed - after making it comprehensible. `visible-mode' which is introduced in this node, is used later to help users who want to learn how to use both the Emacs and standalone Info readers see how the same text looks in the standalone reader (and hence understand remarks about that reader) without actually having to launch that reader and search for the same example text in that reader. Ah, that's what I gathered too. If that's the raison d'etre, then I say toss it. Put it somewhere else if you like, but certainly not near the beginning of the Info tutorial that beginner Emacs users will follow _to try to understand how to use a manual_. It has no place there. Besides, it's so poorly written that it is, to me, incomprehensible. Before you explained it, I thought maybe there would be some argument for it in the tutorial, once I understood more. Now that I understand (a little) more, it seems to be totally inappropriate for the Info tutorial. *IF* (I, for one, am not convinced) it were important for people who would be using both Emacs and the standalone Info, as you say, then it could be part of the Info _manual_ (not the tutorial). It is not written as a tutorial procedure, anyway. On the other hand, you seem to suggest that it is not Info-specific, and describes an invisible text gotcha whose scope is Emacs. In that case, it belongs in the Emacs manual (after rewriting), if it is important/useful. The note also explains how readers who prefer to have the info that Emacs (but not the standalone reader) hides by default available in Emacs as well, can achieve that by using `Info-hide-note-references'. Somewhere else, please. I believe that all of this is useful information and the node is not even very long. I believe that all of this is N characters too long, where N is its length. Note that the decision to add that material to the Info manual was made after quite some discussion on Emacs devel, with your approval and with Karl's support. Maybe it's just in the wrong place, and needs to be rewritten a bit.