From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Info tutorial is out of date Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 10:11:27 -0700 Message-ID: References: <87vepwp3it.fsf@vh213602.truman.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1153156711 31643 80.91.229.2 (17 Jul 2006 17:18:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 17:18:31 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 17 19:18:28 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2Wed-00006N-Kd for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 19:13:12 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2Wed-0003S3-2X for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 13:13:11 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2WeO-0003OI-SQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 13:12:56 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2WeM-0003Jk-TX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 13:12:55 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2WeM-0003Ia-1e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 13:12:54 -0400 Original-Received: from [148.87.113.118] (helo=rgminet01.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1G2Wh3-0006D4-QV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 13:15:42 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsmt251.oracle.com (rcsmt251.oracle.com [148.87.90.196]) by rgminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.6/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id k6HCjZXN016672 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 11:12:50 -0600 Original-Received: from dradams-lap.us.oracle.com by rcsmt251.oracle.com with ESMTP id 1573609771153156288; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 11:11:28 -0600 Original-To: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <87vepwp3it.fsf@vh213602.truman.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 X-Whitelist: TRUE X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:57201 Archived-At: > They're already used to it - there are no more virgin users. They're not used to using the mouse with Emacs. What we're talking about here is menu access and clicking links and buttons. There is nothing Emacs-specific with how user users do those things in Emacs - nothing new. I think you're grasping at straws, here. > I'm not suggesting we teach them *any* way to perform simple > navigation (equivalent of `n' and `p'). On the contrary, my > point was that we *need not* teach that. There is an obvious, > simple way to navigate: click a link or navigation button. Falling back on that is effectively teaching them that's the way to do it, or at least allowing them to teach themselves thats how to do it. Not at all. At most, it could be said to *not* teach them to change their nasty ways. But it does not teach them *anything* new about the mouse/keyboard. > I'm not worried about the risk that users will never learn to use `n' > instead of clicking the `Next' button. You are, apparently. Yes; but on my list of worries, this is fairly minor. Good. So we can take care of that minor risk later in the tutorial; it is secondary. > Info is a browser for finding and reading manuals. The argument for > keyboard shortcuts is vastly overstated when it comes to browsing > (vs editing). I would guess that someone using a mouse (or keyboard) for one part of Emacs would use it throughout. The question is, "Where is the right place to crusade for the keyboard?" That lesson is a distraction from teaching Info.