From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Info tutorial is out of date Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 10:33:41 -0700 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1153071490 22173 80.91.229.2 (16 Jul 2006 17:38:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 17:38:10 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 16 19:38:09 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2AZ5-0000TZ-RS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 19:38:00 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2AZ5-0006ua-Ci for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 13:37:59 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2AVg-0005VB-Ph for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 13:34:29 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2AVd-0005Sh-Mw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 13:34:26 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2AVd-0005SN-0Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 13:34:25 -0400 Original-Received: from [148.87.113.118] (helo=rgminet01.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1G2AY6-0003Rk-Kk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 13:36:58 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsmt251.oracle.com (rcsmt251.oracle.com [148.87.90.196]) by rgminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.6/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id k6GHYM2U024883 for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 11:34:22 -0600 Original-Received: from dhcp-amer-csvpn-gw1-141-144-64-45.vpn.oracle.com by rcsmt250.oracle.com with ESMTP id 1574146831153071233; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 11:33:53 -0600 Original-To: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:57108 Archived-At: The first thing the tutorial should do is take a tour of the menu-bar menu - that is, those menu items that are the most important. This is also the opportunity to point out the key bindings indicated in the menu. That is the way to introduce the shortcuts `i', `s', and `l', for instance - in passing. The menu bar is no more convenient or clear than keys. It's one less thing to teach, in order to get directly into the meat of what we want to teach. The menu bar is *there*; it needs no explaining, no practicing, no remembering. The Info tutorial itself should be accessible (listed) in the menu of the first node of the Info manual. Instead, it is only mentioned in the text of that node, in terms of `h'. I don't see the reason for this. Once a person is looking at the Info manual, he doesn't need the tutorial any more. And he can still get to it in the usual way. But, then why do we introduce the tutorial in the first text of the Info manual? We introduce it by mentioning `h'. I would instead put it in the menu, pointing out that it is an optional node of the manual (and saying clearly what it is). And how else would someone get to the tutorial, except through the Info manual? Before entering the tutorial, we should tell users how to exit it, to get back where they were. I don't quite follow. You enter with `h', and then what? Introduce `q' and `C-h i' to get back where you were in the tutorial. And if the tutorial is not a node in the Info manual, what happens when you reach the end of it? I'd rather see it as an optional node within the Info manual. BTW, `h' should not bring up the tutorial, it should display a mini-version of what `C-h m' shows: a short list of the main key bindings - about the same as what's in the menu-bar menu, but with some explanation. There is no need to have a key binding just to bring up the Info tutorial - people won't be doing that 30 times a day. I see your point, but at the same time, people using Info may not grasp the idea of two-character commands. What two-character command? Just `h' to show the major key bindings. Anyway, they will need to grasp `C-h i' to get into Info and to get back into it. I don't follow you here. The node `Invisible text in Emacs Info' is incomprehensible to me ("invisible text is really a part of the text"!?). Yow! Why are we telling users about killing and yanking Info text? (I guess printing is OK.) Why is this near the beginning of the tutorial? I really, really do not get this. I agree -- why teach people about this in the tutorial? Does anyone think this is desirable? In general, instead of introducing so many key bindings (e.g. `]'), the tutorial should spend the user's time taking a tour of Info *functionality*. Touring the menu-bar menu is a good way to explore the main functionalities: show what's there and what it does. In addition to the features in the menu-bar menu, teach SPC and DEL - that's about it. Other commands such as ] are also functionality. They are a little more advanced, as functionality goes, so perhaps they should come later. Yes, and they are in the menu-bar. AFAIK, the only commands not in the menu-bar are SPC and DEL. By pointing out the existence of the menu-bar, and running users through some of its items, users also learn the lesson that they can find Info functionality there. Instead of remembering, six months later, the Info lesson that ran through using `]', they can remember to check what's in the menu-bar menu - there they'll be reminded that `]' is the binding, or they'll learn about it for the first time.