From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Info tutorial is out of date Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 10:39:48 -0700 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1153244516 9622 80.91.229.2 (18 Jul 2006 17:41:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 17:41:56 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 18 19:41:54 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2tZt-000725-5w for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 19:41:49 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2tZs-000721-KB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 13:41:48 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2tZD-0006gL-6x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 13:41:07 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2tZB-0006eT-NT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 13:41:06 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2tZB-0006eO-Cj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 13:41:05 -0400 Original-Received: from [141.146.126.228] (helo=agminet01.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1G2tc7-00008M-9x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 13:44:07 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsmt250.oracle.com (rcsmt250.oracle.com [148.87.90.195]) by agminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id k6H8YEDl004157 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 12:41:03 -0500 Original-Received: from dhcp-amer-whq-csvpn-gw3-141-144-80-94.vpn.oracle.com by rcsmt250.oracle.com with ESMTP id 1584254031153244392; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 11:39:52 -0600 Original-To: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 X-Whitelist: TRUE X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:57280 Archived-At: > It's just that learning that first gets in the way of learning the > real subject matter of Info: getting information from the manual. sometimes people get info from a manual by sequential browsing. for some manuals/people/situations, this is the most natural way. the attitude is not "i want to find out foo, don't hold me back and waste my time w/ anything that is not foo!". instead, it is "i think foo is in there somewhere, i'll just look over this stuff before and around it while i'm at it. who knows? these might be related to foo or make it even clearer when i find it." Agreed 100%, and I've stated that more than once in this thread. Both browsing and reading the manual from front to back are useful ways to "get information from the manual", in addition to, say, search and look-up in an index, TOC, or glossary. All ways of getting information from the manual are useful subjects for the tutorial. I've stated time and again that I consider teaching SPC and DEL to be important. SPC is really all you need to read a manual from front to back, and together with `Next', `Previous' and the other structural-navigation buttons and links, SPC provides all you need to browse at will, in any direction. FWIW, here are some of the places (quotes), throughout my posts on this thread, where I stressed the importance of teaching SPC and DEL: * In addition to the features in the menu-bar menu, teach SPC and DEL - that's about it. [That's from my first post, opening the thread.] * The most important functions are `i', `s', `g', `l', SPC, DEL, and... * ...presented along with SPC and DEL, which should have a high priority, IMO. * It's also important to teach the key bindings that are not in the menu-bar menu - SPC and DEL. * 1) teach what Info is about, first; 2) start using the obvious how-to (e.g. links, buttons, menu-bar), to teach #1; 3) teach the non-obvious how-to (e.g. SPC, DEL) also; 4) don't bother teaching the obvious, if more-efficient, how-to (e.g. `n'), except possibly as an efficiency booster, after getting the real message across. * (`h' would mention SPC and DEL also, which the menu-bar menu doesn't show.) * I also mentioned the need to have specific tutorial instruction for those keys (e.g. SPC and DEL) that are *not* so obvious. * On the contrary, didn't I say that SPC and DEL should be taught explicitly (and early) in the tutorial, because they are not obvious (visible)? I don't see how anyone reading my posts can think that I don't acknowledge that reading the manual from front to back and browsing it are both ways to "get information from the manual", and therefore subjects for the tutorial. I'm sure lots of people have given up on reading all of my posts (I don't blame them!), but for those who have read them, I don't see how they could not understand that I recognize manual browsing as important.