From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Info tutorial is out of date Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 16:01:16 -0700 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1153177509 6226 80.91.229.2 (17 Jul 2006 23:05:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 23:05:09 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 18 01:05:08 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2c9A-0000fU-Tk for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 01:05:05 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2c9A-0004hn-FN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 19:05:04 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2c7O-0003U8-Ag for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 19:03:14 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2c7N-0003Tk-Fr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 19:03:13 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2c7N-0003Ta-6T for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 19:03:13 -0400 Original-Received: from [148.87.113.118] (helo=rgminet01.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1G2cA8-0001VF-6A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 19:06:04 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsmt251.oracle.com (rcsmt251.oracle.com [148.87.90.196]) by rgminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.6/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id k6HBQC1M002530 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 17:03:10 -0600 Original-Received: from dradams-lap.us.oracle.com by rcsmt250.oracle.com with ESMTP id 1576283651153177278; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 17:01:18 -0600 Original-To: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Whitelist: TRUE X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:57221 Archived-At: > To me, structural navigation is not the goal; it is a means > to achieve the > goal, which is getting info from a manual (whether quick look-up or > front-to-back reading). Reading a manual in order is one paradigm of learning a package. So we cannot dispose of the structural navigation keys. No. The proper conclusion is that we cannot dispose of *structural navigation*. This does not necessarily have anything to do with *keys*. Anyway, no one proposed to dispose of either structural navigation or structural-navigation keys. The proposal was to *postpone* (not dispose of) *teaching* about structural-navigation *keys*. Each of those 3 qualifiers is important. And then, only the keys that have obvious, visible alternatives would be taught later. I specifically argued for teaching SPC and DEL up front. You can read an entire manual, in order, from front to back, using just SPC. I didn't paint things in black & white terms, and it's not honest to characterize my proposal that way.