From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: tutorial or guidebook text for some complex topics Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:45:00 -0700 Message-ID: References: <17725.23223.572953.360702@kahikatea.snap.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1161722751 16918 80.91.229.2 (24 Oct 2006 20:45:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 20:45:51 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 24 22:45:46 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcT9R-0004cH-3B for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:45:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcT9Q-0003o4-Dp for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:45:32 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1GcT98-0003jF-S8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:45:14 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1GcT97-0003et-4B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:45:14 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GcT96-0003ed-Up for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:45:12 -0400 Original-Received: from [148.87.113.118] (helo=rgminet01.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.52) id 1GcT96-0002QT-SO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:45:13 -0400 Original-Received: from rgmsgw02.us.oracle.com (rgmsgw02.us.oracle.com [138.1.186.52]) by rgminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id k9OKj7J2020383 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 14:45:07 -0600 Original-Received: from dradamslap (dhcp-amer-whq-csvpn-gw3-141-144-83-3.vpn.oracle.com [141.144.83.3]) by rgmsgw02.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.2.4) with SMTP id k9OKj6mU025834 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 14:45:06 -0600 Original-To: "Emacs-Devel" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <17725.23223.572953.360702@kahikatea.snap.net.nz> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Whitelist: TRUE X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:61123 Archived-At: My aim is to stop `the real thread' as I don't find it appropriate to continually suggest tasks, especially complex ones for after the release, when you have no intention of doing them yourself. I do intend to work on this. I brought up the idea (first contribution). I offered to provide feedback on contributions by others (second contribution). I offered suggestions about starting the task: examples and logic come before words (third contribution). Think of this as an opportunity, not a chore. If you're not interested, move on; there is no need to try to "stop" the suggestion in its tracks (which you appear to have done). Imagine more Emacs programmers having a better idea what keymaps are like structurally - is that a good thing or a bad thing? Is it worth enhancing the doc? If it's not worth it to you, do you think you should stop others who might think it worthwhile - in the name of preventing them from being distracted from their important work? I specifically proposed this for after the release, to try to forestall such a knee-jerk reaction - to no avail. And I proposed taking the discussion and work on this off the list, to Emacs Wiki. Concerning my contribution - I've suggested lots of possible new features and other improvements, and I'll continue to do so. In some cases, I've been waiting 2 years for the release to be out before I suggest some features (you've been warned!). I consider that to be a constructive contribution, whether or not each of my suggestions is implemented. In many cases, I've implemented the features myself, and I provide well-documented source code freely, to serve as food for thought for others. I spend a lot of time documenting my code, in hopes that that will help others to move further. It happens that any text or code I write won't be used by GNU, but I can contribute abstract ideas - so I do that. I make suggestions and I report bugs, but I don't decide what others must or must not work on (that's effectively what you did, BTW). I've argued against some ideas, but I have not tried to stifle their consideration. In my opinion, its a distraction for those who are contributing. You have a very narrow idea of who is contributing, or even what contributing means. Just reading this mailing list, without even posting, is a contribution: people learn, think, and share with others (on and off list), and that means progress. Sending a bug report is contributing. Asking a question is contributing. Thinking about a problem is contributing. It's never obvious how progress moves; if you think you see that movement clearly, then you are deluding yourself. If you think only a couple dozen "Emacs developers" are developing Emacs, then you are deluding yourself, and you have an exaggerated idea of your own relative contribution (which is no doubt great, in absolute terms). However, I'm sure Richard won't agree with me, as the convenience of developers seems to come last on his list. We are all developers of Emacs, and no one of us has a sure-fire recipe for what is convenient for all of us or best for Emacs development as a whole. That goes for RMS as well (as I'm sure he is well aware).