From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Info tutorial is out of date Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 09:37:59 -0700 Message-ID: References: <20060717132132.GD1234@muc.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1153154351 22837 80.91.229.2 (17 Jul 2006 16:39:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 16:39:11 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 17 18:39:08 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2W7b-000169-1E for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 18:39:03 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2W7a-0004H8-BB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:39:02 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2W6k-0003vW-OW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:38:10 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2W6j-0003us-Rx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:38:10 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2W6j-0003up-LT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:38:09 -0400 Original-Received: from [148.87.113.118] (helo=rgminet01.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1G2W9Q-0003Ki-Vu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:40:57 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsmt251.oracle.com (rcsmt251.oracle.com [148.87.90.196]) by rgminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.6/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id k6HBQBlM002515 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 10:38:06 -0600 Original-Received: from dradams-lap.us.oracle.com by rcsmt251.oracle.com with ESMTP id 1573570931153154280; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 10:38:00 -0600 Original-To: "Emacs-Devel" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20060717132132.GD1234@muc.de> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 X-Whitelist: TRUE X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:57195 Archived-At: > The most important functions are `i', `s', `g', `l', SPC, DEL, and > perhaps `T' and `L' (and maybe even `M-n'). They are certainly *NOT* > `n', `p', `u', `d', and `m'. In my own Info use, I use: `u' and `l', `TAB' and `CR' (on links) all the time; , also all the time; `n' and `m' quite often, `p' a little less so. `s', `t' and `d' every now and then. `g' I only really use for going to an index or navigating "my own" info file (which I know like the back of my hand). `[' and `]' practically never. `i', `SPC', `DEL', `b', `q' I can't remember ever using (maybe I should read the tutorial ;-). Glad to see some discussion finally on what's important to teach in Info! That's just what we need, to advance the schmilblick. I don't disagree with much of what you say here, but it's good to prioritize, since the list of useful commands is long. And thanks for reminding us that visible links can be accessed by `CR' from the keyboard, not just via `m' and `f' - another reason to lower the priority of teaching `m' and `f'. As a first step in the direction of prioritization, I would put everything that is purely a keyboard alternative to something that is obvious (e.g. a link or button) as a lower priority. That means: `u', `CR', `m', `p', `d', and `f'. We don't need to drop teaching these useful shortcuts, but we can do it later in the tutorial. Secondly, I think and are also pretty obvious, and don't need to be a high priority. They're not visible in Info itself, as is a Next link, but they're pretty standard and the keys are usually labeled appropriately. `TAB' is useful and non-obvious, although it is of use primarily to keyboard users. It could perhaps be presented along with SPC and DEL, which should have a high priority, IMO. Or, it could be presented with other navigational keyboard shortcuts, at a lower priority. The fact that it has no alternative that is visible argues for a higher priority than things like `n' and `p'. `q' is fairly important, and its presentation should be coupled with `C-h i', pointing out that re-entering Info puts you back where you last were (not an obvious feature). I imagine that you use `C-x 0', which I guess amounts to the same thing, but a newbie might not think of it. Since `q' is a shortcut for Quit in the menubar menu, I would not put this at a high priority. But since the feature of re-entering where you left off is not obvious, I would not put it at a low priority either. Pointing out this feature is more important than teaching use of `n' and `p' to be more efficient. I personally would place `b', `]', and `[' at a somewhat lower priority, but these are not obvious, so the question might be debated. I personally would place `g' at an intermediate priority. It is not obvious, and it has no alternative. When you need it, you need it. I frequently browse through the Emacs manual by following a link, then using `u' once or twice "to find out where I am" followed by `l' to get back to that link. Interesting (and I do the same). Nothing wrong with this use pattern, but I wonder if a command that tells you where are (in the manual hierarchy) wouldn't be useful. It could be bound, for example, to `.' (a la `pwd'). (Yes, I know that `.' is currently a synonym for `b'.) It could display a "breadcrumbs" message such as this: (emacs) Top > Minibuffer > Completion > Completion Commands. I think everybody has their own pattern for using these commands, and it is not at all certain that `n', `p', `u', `d', and `m' are secondary in importance. It's not that they are not important. It's that *teaching* them is less important, because there are obvious (visible) alternatives. But we've been 'round that bush before... > I think that must be our basic disagreement: what are the most > important Info functions and features to teach? Do we need to start by > teaching `n', `p', `u', `d', and `m'? Disregarding `m', I think that's almost the same question as "do we wish to teach that (most?) manuals are hierarchically structured?". It's enough to: 1) say that manuals are hierarchically structured, and 2) point out the Next, Previous, and Up links as manifestations of this structure. And 3) distinguish structural navigation from chronological navigation (`l', `r').