From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Info tutorial is out of date Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 10:33:43 -0700 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1153071455 22080 80.91.229.2 (16 Jul 2006 17:37:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 17:37:35 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 16 19:37:32 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2AYb-0000Lq-Ai for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 19:37:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2AYa-0006iC-Qa for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 13:37:28 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2AVh-0005Un-4g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 13:34:29 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2AVd-0005Sc-Oa for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 13:34:26 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2AVd-0005SJ-0h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 13:34:25 -0400 Original-Received: from [148.87.113.118] (helo=rgminet01.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1G2AY6-0003Rm-MM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 13:36:58 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsmt251.oracle.com (rcsmt251.oracle.com [148.87.90.196]) by rgminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.6/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id k6GHYMZN024891 for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 11:34:22 -0600 Original-Received: from dhcp-amer-csvpn-gw1-141-144-64-45.vpn.oracle.com by rcsmt250.oracle.com with ESMTP id 1574146881153071235; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 11:33:55 -0600 Original-To: "Emacs-Devel" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:57107 Archived-At: i agree that moving `i' more towards the beginning is a good idea. we can keep the node about invisible text and use it to introduce `i' (and `l'): Although info manuals are organized like a tree, you can jump directly to a specific topic using `i'. I wouldn't call index entries "topics". I'd reserve that term for node names. To me, `g' is for jumping to a topic; `i' is for looking up something (not a topic, but anything) in the index. Read the following key sequence and then try it! Type Explanation ------------------------------------------------------------ i You see the prompt "Index topic:". invisible A topic not immediately visible from here. RET You visit node "Help-Inv" and Emacs displays a message where "invisible" was found. l You return here. I didn't understand this at first, because it is in the form of a table. I thought each row was separate; I didn't understand that you meant to type process the rows in sequence. Perhaps numbering the rows would help. I think something like this would be better, though: Type: i invisible RET When you hit `i', you are prompted for something to look up in the index. You type `invisible' and hit `RET' to look up "invisible". Look-up finds Info node `Help-Inv', and it takes you there. That node explains invisibility. To get back to the node where you hit `i', use `l'. That said, I really don't think node `Help-Inv' is helpful (or I don't understand it). I also don't think your instructions above should use the word "visible" in the context of talking about "invisible"; that just confuses things. I think it's better to have separate lessons for `l' and `r', on the one hand, and `i' on the other. I'd suggest taking a tour of the Index with `i' and visiting the TOC with `T'. Since the TOC display is different from other Info pages, a mini-lesson on using it could be helpful. Likewise, for `L' and the history display. There should also be a brief visit to the glossary. BTW, there is no index entry for "glossary" in the Emacs manual, and there is no glossary in the Emacs-Lisp manual (and the Info manual). We should also perhaps have a command for glossary lookup - perhaps `G'. i think this fits in w/ your point that it is best to DO something in a tutorial rather than just talk about it, and that navigation tasks are of lower priority than search tasks (if those were indeed your points). Yes.