From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Info tutorial is out of date Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 10:33:42 -0700 Message-ID: References: <20060716090816.GA1167@muc.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1153071351 21828 80.91.229.2 (16 Jul 2006 17:35:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 17:35:51 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 16 19:35:50 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2AWv-0008Uu-UV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 19:35:46 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2AWv-000605-G1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 13:35:45 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2AVg-0005U7-20 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 13:34:28 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2AVd-0005Sq-ST for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 13:34:26 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2AVc-0005SH-Vr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 13:34:25 -0400 Original-Received: from [148.87.113.118] (helo=rgminet01.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1G2AY6-0003Rh-JI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 13:36:58 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsmt251.oracle.com (rcsmt251.oracle.com [148.87.90.196]) by rgminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.6/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id k6GGsBnd005481 for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 11:34:22 -0600 Original-Received: from dhcp-amer-csvpn-gw1-141-144-64-45.vpn.oracle.com by rcsmt250.oracle.com with ESMTP id 1574146871153071235; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 11:33:55 -0600 Original-To: "Emacs-Devel" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20060716090816.GA1167@muc.de> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 X-Whitelist: TRUE X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:57104 Archived-At: > Another in the Mouseless-That-Roared camp, eh? A small, but very vocal > and militant minority, apparently. Vent against he who seems to speak > for the lousy moused masses of nasty newbies. It's OK; I can take it; > I have to, for the noobs' sake ;-). Well, there are about 100 people on the Emacs project list, and 3 have taken exception to your m[o]usings. Even assuming the other ~97, none of whom has yet voiced an opinion on the matter, are confirmed habitual mousers, that leaves 3% of users as mouse haters. The point is, you don't have any decent statistics and neither do I. 1. I'm *not* a mouser. Except to click links sometimes, I use keys in Info (and Emacs). This is not about what I use or what you use or 27% or 97% of emacs-devel use; it is about how best to teach newbies about Info. 2. Most people never speak up on an issue. That doesn't say anything about where they stand on the issue, or even if they care about it at all. 3. If mouse vs keyboard practices are relevant to this discussion at all (it's a discussion about the Info tutorial, remember?), then the users to measure are *not* the 100 emacs-devel subscribers. People who don't use Emacs, and Emacs newbies, are the target audience for the tutorial, not us. This is an important point - what you or I do daily with mice and keyboards is unimportant (irrelevant) to the design of the tutorial. The tutorial is not for us. 4. The reaction to my post from 3 people who don't use a mouse was all about *them*, not about the target tutorial community. It was all about their own anti-mousing, and ~zero about the ideas in my post for improving the tutorial. IOW, their own anti-mouse button got pushed somehow, and any real debate on the ideas I raised was drowned. I'm glad, BTW, that I don't often use the mouse, myself; otherwise, I might have felt targeted by the reaction and tried to defend mousing as somehow superior (which it is not). As it is, I know your reaction is misplaced. I only wish the real issues were discussed, if there is disagreement on those. 5. I raised lots of ideas about emphasizing the important Info stuff. People don't need to agree with all of those ideas, but there was little uptake on them, except from RMS (and, later, from Thi). Does lack of response to my main suggestions mean that 100% (minus RMS and I) don't support the ideas? I don't think you can fairly reason that way. Mousing or not seems to be a hot-button issue for those who don't use a mouse. To me, it is a non-issue. I don't promote use of the mouse, and I am all for recommending in the tutorial (and elsewhere) that newbies learn to use keyboard commands. You missed the point - it's about *what Info is about*, and it's not about `n', `p', `u', and `d'. It's about finding information. The easiest and quickest way we can bring newbies to the real information is what we should aim for. Teaching `n' etc. up front is a wasteful distraction from the real goal. > Next week I'll do battle with those (even more ferocious) who hold > that only UPPERCASE characters are pure, clear, truthful, and > sufficient; lowercase being but a lying distraction designed to take > our focus off the true aim of STRUGGLE against the dominance of > MongrelMulattoMixedCharacterism. Compared to the luddite lowercasians, > the mighty mouseless are a small piece of cake (or is it cheese?). Drew, you've hit a raw nerve. Whether one uses a mouse extensively or not is a highly emotional thing, on a par with whether one uses Microsoft Windows XP rather than GNU/Linux. Your original post was a rant, and you used lots of loaded words and phrases (like "shortcut"). You shouldn't be too surprised at getting flamed a little bit. I don't care if I'm flamed; I enjoyed the exchange, as entertainment. My original post was not at all a rant; the fact that you see it that way says something about your hot button. My followup posts to your rants were sardonic and meant to be humorous. But I'm not on a rant to promote mice - far from it. I have nothing I'm pushing here; even my suggestions for the tutorial are offered with no special drive behind them. Key bindings *are* shortcuts - what's wrong with that? 1) They are commonly called "keyboard shortcuts" by many people. 2) They are shorter (quicker) to use than clicking menus and links with a mouse - don't you agree? They are shorter (quicker) than using `M-x' - don't you agree? What is it about "shortcut" that sets you off? I think there are a lot more pure keyboard users out there than you do. Who knows? I tried to offer some objective info - do you have something to add to that? Keep in mind that the audience to be measured for mouse/keyboard use is not the members of emacs-devel, or even the users of Emacs; it is the non-users and the new users of Emacs, for the most part. I also think that not encouraging frivolous mouse use is a Good Thing. I'm not encouraging mouse use, "frivolous" or otherwise. I proposed that we get to the heart of the teaching matter in Info right away, using the obvious tools available that everyone knows how to use: links and buttons. I didn't weigh in on the keyboard vs mouse issue at all - I didn't even know there was such an issue - it's your hot button, not mine. I mentioned mouse-usage statistics in my followup to your rant because I think it's a mistake to orient the entire Info tutorial to the use patterns of a tiny minority. I don't mind accomodating that minority (and I suggested a couple ways that could be done); what I object to is hijacking the tutorial, distracting learners from the subject at hand - which is what Info is. (Yes, "hijacking" is inexact here, since the tutorial already has that orientation. But it has that orientation, IIUC, only for historical reasons, not because emacs-devel decided that keyboard shortcuts `n', `p' etc were the most important thing to teach first.) I don't see the point in making the first half of the Info tutorial a battle for keyboardism against creeping mousism. Get the new users to the info on Info right away. Bring them to keyboard heaven afterward. I'm not going through the rest of your reply in detail, because that would just get repetitive, bore everybody to tears and make us both unpopular on the list. Thank you. Suffice it to say I agree with your main points, those which weren't about WIMPs and mice vs. real men. Thank you again. Perhaps we can discuss the details - of disagreement, for example - of the main points. > So let's spruce it. Glad to end on a not[e] of agreement. :-) As am I.