From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean-Christophe Helary Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Translation of manuals (was: SES manual French translation) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2024 13:30:44 +0000 Message-ID: References: <91D00B9D-0057-4748-8C83-50E749FE3961@traductaire-libre.org> <835y0b29rk.fsf@gnu.org> <8A22A273-11F5-449C-A2A4-2E8C68CCF1FE@traductaire-libre.org> <83ttnvzwlw.fsf@gnu.org> <5D3D13BC-E621-4C40-88D7-3E5805F631AB@traductaire-libre.org> <83sf3fzvk4.fsf@gnu.org> <835y0azhvo.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="30412"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Stefan Kangas , =?utf-8?Q?Vincent_Bela=C3=AFche?= , emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jan 03 14:54:47 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rL1hm-0007eJ-Ty for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 03 Jan 2024 14:54:47 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rL1gu-00085H-JJ; Wed, 03 Jan 2024 08:53:52 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rL1Kt-0001eA-6z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 03 Jan 2024 08:31:07 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-4317.proton.ch ([185.70.43.17]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rL1Kn-0006yh-JK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 03 Jan 2024 08:31:06 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=traductaire-libre.org; s=protonmail; t=1704288656; x=1704547856; bh=sFfjz7Qmn8KjgYXXtLFy6p/e/XxZV03CKJknN8EeEB8=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=zdd6oqAS/dSTa+xzUr4mKjH4GN+92EduBqzYyh4r7Vm+2Ka5ZSy9a4CyaYxQLVCXh gbY4hVlulK4lWlgJgETLY9A3/PEcdRcpurPBw4W6qRHNJw1Jyk6DqKru3bAclqWGSG 4I0pYZzs2oIYyqlEXtz1MRVsyHfG4afeR9Uj/fBe93XimZMIV+tABPCSxMZ6uOuvcE STyGbxUZlYq5wfoNsna9lhHapiTVXJd34Srxw0JULy036s+Hm9BxEktUmg8VV2z6+s U8YPxq8p5gmXO5SNprmuiuT607+QTcbF2Kdk2uDVvE9iyF4wnDHcxPnBbubGy2hQta oWWbMVJn1YlRA== In-Reply-To: <835y0azhvo.fsf@gnu.org> Feedback-ID: 92162971:user:proton Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.70.43.17; envelope-from=jean.christophe.helary@traductaire-libre.org; helo=mail-4317.proton.ch X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 03 Jan 2024 08:53:48 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:314495 Archived-At: > On Jan 3, 2024, at 22:06, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >=20 >> From: Stefan Kangas >> Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2024 20:38:27 -0800 >> Cc: vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org >>=20 >> Eli Zaretskii writes: >>=20 >>>> Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2024 13:51:38 +0000 >>>> From: Jean-Christophe Helary >>>> Cc: Vincent Bela=C3=AFche , stefankangas@gmail= .com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org >>>>=20 >>>>> I meant markers specifically for translators, so that it would be eas= y >>>>> to detect chunk(s) of text that was/were modified, and update their >>>>> translations. >>>>=20 >>>> Don't you think that would be a bit burdensome for authors? Or do you >>>> mean semi-automatically? >>>=20 >>> If there are markers, then finding the chunks whose translations >>> should be updated could be scripted, yes. It could be done with an >>> Emacs Lisp program, for example. >>=20 >> A "chunk" here means something like a sentence, or even smaller. It is >> therefore impractical to add such markers to the source text. >=20 > If chunks were sentences, that would be impractical, indeed. But I > very much doubt that this is a good idea for translating manuals > (message catalogs use short phrases because most messages in programs > are themselves short phrases or single sentences). Translating a > sentence out of its context is much harder than translating a whole > paragraph, because different languages have different ways of > explaining technical issues, and a good translation might well require > rearrange or rewrite sentences. Indeed. But =E2=80=9Cmarking=E2=80=9D sentences does not mean that they can= =E2=80=99t be=20 translated by using different structures. A practical example for that=20 is when translating 2 sentences with one sentence with two parts=20 separated by a comma. Also, translating a sentence never happens out of its context. There is=20 the sentence before and the sentence after and all are visually present=20 during the translation. So it=E2=80=99s easy for the translator to take the= =20 context into account. There are some sentences that will take a wholly different meaning=20 depending on the context, but such sentences are usually short=20 *and* less attached to the context, so they do need special treatment.=20 But that=E2=80=99s considered during the translation process. I understand that you have some translating experience, but I am not=20 sure that we see the same issues. > So my initial thinking was that whole paragraphs, and sometimes more, > should be marked as a unit. And that is much more practical than > marking short phrases or single sentences. I=E2=80=99m not sure I understand what kind of marks you envision. Paragrap= hs=20 are already marked by surrounding empty lines. --=20 Jean-Christophe Helary @jchelary@emacs.ch https://traductaire-libre.org https://mac4translators.blogspot.com https://sr.ht/~brandelune/omegat-as-a-book/