From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Improve access to documentation in Info format Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2024 23:08:44 -0500 Message-ID: References: <87ser8c230.fsf@jeremybryant.net> <86ser87rut.fsf@gnu.org> <871pygyjqt.fsf_-_@gmail.com> <87zfl2mhoz.fsf@gmail.com> Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="30360"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: suhailsingh247@gmail.com, bjorn.bidar@thaodan.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Suhail Singh Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jan 01 05:09:46 2025 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1tSq3G-0007k3-1s for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 01 Jan 2025 05:09:46 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tSq2N-0003Cd-Mx; Tue, 31 Dec 2024 23:08:51 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tSq2J-0003CQ-26 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Dec 2024 23:08:47 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tSq2I-0007c7-96; Tue, 31 Dec 2024 23:08:46 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=2M3WG3vYyhX3/aGRrVmy7w8XFR/Qa1JHMR07uHKYeTE=; b=FK+SbS00Z5GT orbRoGqlhjSSpUHzxbdMttL6gV5d0WQKKwHPJ4RQUKuV9CoVNFmI3EUZmjdPU9kGO/m5SUptG1p+m xSqJJYL4q1OuJTsuBwRNnvZuhTzmzwN4WFhGV7R76x4xPX37PjlMGZ61MaemCtn+0q4Z7HxgE3O2R iUSz4CNV4x5K+VYKPpP4rAIYbuj1hcFwgPBZQIA1mgmqNmoFnflV20B4UPBdb2AEBeWaMB6b9TH9g vTS3bT2EsPHA9m4CndVeSUS4ZfTnGSLlIS2mpwhv8A6kZbWHpz8mYb7zyQrJr29UmxGcAbpd7fZdD NVsj+GYaao46TqnWl7Sprw==; Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tSq2G-0007ZO-Ep; Tue, 31 Dec 2024 23:08:45 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87zfl2mhoz.fsf@gmail.com> (message from Suhail Singh on Wed, 11 Dec 2024 09:13:00 -0500) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:327538 Archived-At: [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Could you comment on the user-facing features that would no longer work > with such "visibly wrong" translated-from-other-formats Info manuals? Here's an example. Three important Texinfo constructs, used in every manual, are @dfn, @emph and @var. In printed output, they are all equivalent: they put text in italics. But in plain text output, without fonts, they do different things. @dfn puts "..." around the text. @emph puts _..._ around the text. And @var upcases the text. Using italic for all three purposes is clear, because readers can tell from the context which meaning the italics means. But in the absence of italic font, these constructs have to be indicated in other ways, and there is no one way that makes all three clear. Anoter case is @code and @samp. In printed output, they use the fixed-width code font. @samp adds paired singlequotes, and @code does not. In plain text output, without distinction by fondt, the best handling I can think of is to is output `...' for both @code and Ssamp. It does not distinguish them from each other, but it at least distinguishes both of them from ordinary text. "Natural" markup notations that try to resemble ordinary punctuation have trouble making these distinctions. They are based on WYGIWYW, What You Get Is What You Write. So if several markup constructs get you the same thing in one output format, you have to write them the same way in the source, so they all get you the same thing in each output format. I am not saying it is _impossible_ to extend any of those markup systems to make these distinctions. Quite the contrary, I hope someone will invent a way, and implement it. Then, with luck, we could perhaps adopt that markup system for source code for our manuals. But this would involve making the markup system less "natural". Untll someone invents that, we can't use a natural markup notation to replace Texinfo format. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)