"About Emacs" page

"About Emacs" page

[Summer Emacs]

Hi again,
I’m starting a new thread because it’s a different topic. It ties in to my Newbie project, but it’s separate so I don’t want to confuse the two.

Okay, I’m going to detail here what I think about the “About Emacs” page (C-h C-a) which everyone first sees when they boot up Emacs for the first time. This isn’t about my project in particular, but I think it will zoom out a bit and show people how I see it (if anyone is interested - feel free to skip this all if it doesn’t interest you at all):

When you first start up Emacs for the first time, you get to the page “About Emacs” (C-h C-a). From there, you have links to (in sequential order):

Authors
Contributing

GNU and Freedom
Absence of Warranty
Copying Conditions
Getting New Versions
Ordering Manuals

Emacs Tutorial
Emacs Guided Tour
Emacs Manual

Breakdown:
Okay. This is literally the first thing a new user sees (as far as I can remember) when they start up Emacs. It’s good we have a landing page, but let’s look at how it’s ordered for a completely new user:

1) Authors/Contributing - this is great. I approve and I think having links to that is important to recognise the huge task people do for the project. However, most new users aren’t going to be clicking on that right away as they still don’t know anything about Emacs. That would, imho, go towards the bottom of this important list.

2) GNU and Freedom - There’s a philosophy here about Emacs, I recognise that, but is it really what most people want to read about when they first open up Emacs? I actually found it to be an interesting read and I can go into my views if anyone wants to ask, but I’m not really here to discuss philosophy straight away - I’m here to write in Emacs, save my writing, and publish or do anything else I want to do. Getting into the philosophy of Emacs might be important (I think it is at times), but it’s not foremost on people’s minds when they first open Emacs.

3) Absence of Warranty - Okay. Legal. Important to understand but..a little scary. If you’re trying a new product, you don’t want one of the FIRST things you see to say “use at your own risk”. That might be an important piece of info, but we’re not trying to tell them that Emacs is risky when they first open it up. Let’s put that at the bottom. Let’s orient them before we warn them about anything and explain the warning. People tend to read the first line and go with that and even if you have an explanation behind the link, they may not read it. So let’s not put that at the top.

4) Copying Conditions - That’s another great link to have. I think it’s important to the philosophy and legal stuff of Emacs but, again, belongs at the bottom with the philosophy/legal stuff. Most people don’t open up Microsoft Word and click on the legal stuff. Sure, they *should* at some point (we’re all Emacs users here after all so we all agree about some things in general), but *do* they? No. What would be better is to allude to it and introduce them to some concepts on the go in the new users (newbie) tutorial.

5) Getting New Versions - Good link to have, not so helpful at the top though. Put it at the bottom below the Emacs philosophy/legal section.

6) Ordering Manuals - This is good! But, it should be under the new users/Emacs tutorials in the same grouping. It makes sense to put it there as it’s the same subject. It’ll still be in the top section that way but grouped better.

7) Emacs Tutorial - That should be right at the top below the new newbie section which I plan on finishing sometime in the coming weeks. The newbie section will also have a link to the Emacs tutorial and info about how to get back to the newbie pages.

8) Emacs Guided Tour - this is, again, is a great section, however…it’s confusing to new users (as explained in one of my last emails). It should be near the bottom of the top section because it’s not *really* a guided tour. I actually like that it uses eww as it can introduce a new user to the idea that you can use eww to read stuff online (which I do sometimes), but again…just see what I wrote about it previously.

9) Emacs Manual - Good. I like. In depth, interesting, but very difficult for a new user to read through. They have to understand the basics first. I think that should go right under the Emacs tutorial which would be right under the newbie users section at the top.

Okay, so that’s the About Emacs page broken down as I see it. I hope it doesn’t ruffle too many feathers. Notice: I don’t want to remove anything from that page. Ideally, add the newbie link at the top and rearrange a few things. At worst: add the newbie link at the top.

But since I’m analysing this from my perspective, I’ll give another quick take and I hope I don’t insult anyone here, this is not my intention please believe me:

The logo.

Ok. I kinda like the logo, but it’s…it looks old. It’s very basic and it has a lot of confusing lines all over the place. It’s a bit messy, to be honest.

What would I replace it with? Well, I favour something like the logos represented here:

https://github.com/egstatsml/emacs_fancy_logos

It's still the Emacs logo, but it looks more modern. I’m not saying we should use *those* in particular, but you can see how it changes things up a little bit while it keeps the Emacs logo the same and adds some nicer colours to the whole arrangement. Again: I don’t want to get rid of the Gnu, I like the Gnu. I think the Gnu is awesome. I just think some might want to consider using a logo with the Gnu that is something a bit more…this century than last. Emacs isn’t just about the past, it's about the future too.

Again: Right now I’m focused on the Newbie project, not the About Emacs page. But I figured since the link would be there (ideally), we might want to take a fresh look at that page itself - especially since I’ve had feedback concerning “keeping up with the times”.

In summation, the new order would read something like this:

Emacs Logo (as usual or changed - either way)

—> New Emacs User? Click here. <--
Emacs Tutorial
Emacs Manual
Emacs Guided Tour
Ordering Manuals

GNU and Freedom
Copying Conditions
Getting New Versions
Absence of Warranty

Authors
Contributing

Thank you for reading such a long email.

Note: I’m super busy every day and even during the evenings and night. I have a job which involves a lot of social activity at times, so if you reply to emails in the thread, I will read them - I just won’t necessarily be able to answer them all. If anyone wants to chat with me during the day or evenings, I can usually be found in #systemcrafters or #emacs under the nick SummerEmacs on Libera of course.


Summer Emacs ☀️🐃 
summeremacs@summerstar.me
“Shake it Off <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_JiMkVx0FU>” - Taylor Swift 💖

Re: "About Emacs" page

[Philip Kaludercic]

Summer Emacs <summeremacs@summerstar.me> writes:


[...]

> What would I replace it with? Well, I favour something like the logos represented here:
>
> https://github.com/egstatsml/emacs_fancy_logos
>
> It's still the Emacs logo, but it looks more modern. I’m not saying we
> should use *those* in particular, but you can see how it changes
> things up a little bit while it keeps the Emacs logo the same and adds
> some nicer colours to the whole arrangement. Again: I don’t want to
> get rid of the Gnu, I like the Gnu. I think the Gnu is awesome. I just
> think some might want to consider using a logo with the Gnu that is
> something a bit more…this century than last. Emacs isn’t just about
> the past, it's about the future too.

I think it is a waste of effort to discuss points like these.  It is
easy to have differing opinions on the matter, but it essentially boils
down to the value of appearing modern or not.

[...]

> In summation, the new order would read something like this:
>
> Emacs Logo (as usual or changed - either way)
>
> —> New Emacs User? Click here. <--
> Emacs Tutorial
> Emacs Manual
> Emacs Guided Tour
> Ordering Manuals
>
> GNU and Freedom
> Copying Conditions
> Getting New Versions
> Absence of Warranty
>
> Authors
> Contributing

I do think the idea of a prominent "Click here" button would be a good idea!

[...]


-- 
	Philip Kaludercic on siskin

Re: "About Emacs" page

[Emanuel Berg]

Philip Kaludercic wrote:

>> It's still the Emacs logo, but it looks more modern.
>> I'm not saying we should use *those* in particular, but you
>> can see how it changes things up a little bit while it
>> keeps the Emacs logo the same and adds some nicer colors to
>> the whole arrangement. Again: I don't want to get rid of
>> the Gnu, I like the Gnu. I think the Gnu is awesome. I just
>> think some might want to consider using a logo with the Gnu
>> that is something a bit more…this century than last.
>> Emacs isn't just about the past, it's about the future too.
>
> I think it is a waste of effort to discuss points like
> these. It is easy to have differing opinions on the matter,
> but it essentially boils down to the value of appearing
> modern or not.

That logo absolutely does not look modern, and I doubt that it
is - when is it from? It doesn't say on the Emacs wiki. [1]
Looks like something from the early days of the Internet.

We should _be_ modern and looking modern is a huge part
of that.

> I do think the idea of a prominent "Click here" button would
> be a good idea!

Reminds me of high-resolution Windows when suddenly whatever
you did small pop-ups appeared with links ...

[1] https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsLogo

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: "About Emacs" page

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org>
> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2024 04:47:25 +0200
> 
> That logo absolutely does not look modern, and I doubt that it
> is - when is it from? It doesn't say on the Emacs wiki. [1]
> Looks like something from the early days of the Internet.

It's from 2015, less than 10 years ago.  Yes, time flies, and the
false "modernity" sense flies with it.

> We should _be_ modern and looking modern is a huge part
> of that.

We should also be different from all the rest of fashion-driven world.

There's nothing wrong with the logo, it's a little puzzle in itself,
if you want.

P.S. I agree with Philip that starting this kind of discussions from
points like this one is a bad idea.  History teaches us that doing so
quickly makes the discussion fruitless.  We should first discuss the
content, not the form and/or order of items on menus etc.

Re: "About Emacs" page

[Sławomir Grochowski]

Summer Emacs <summeremacs@summerstar.me> writes:
> Emacs Logo (as usual or changed - either way)
>
> —> New Emacs User? Click here. <--
> Emacs Tutorial
> Emacs Manual
> Emacs Guided Tour
> Ordering Manuals
>
> GNU and Freedom
> Copying Conditions
> Getting New Versions
> Absence of Warranty
>
> Authors
> Contributing

Good work! 

1. The new links order is definitely a good idea. I support it.  
2. I also think the logo is ugly and might deter new users. But let's move
this topic to another thread because there will be a long and heated
discussion about personal preferences here. So let's first focus on
improving the order of links.  
3. Agree with others that the 'Click here' button doesn't fit with Emacs.

-- 
Slawomir Grochowski

Re: "About Emacs" page

[Juergen Fenn]

Am 20.09.24 um 08:41 Uhr schrieb Eli Zaretskii:
> There's nothing wrong with the logo, it's a little puzzle in itself,
> if you want.

I agree, but on the Mac all application icons were redesigned lately to
a square look, while the Emacs icon is the only one that still is round.
So, you might like to change this in the NextStep port, regardless of
the Emacs logo.

Best regards,
Jürgen.

Re: "About Emacs" page

[Juergen Fenn]

Am 20.09.24 um 09:09 Uhr schrieb Juergen Fenn:
>
>
> Am 20.09.24 um 08:41 Uhr schrieb Eli Zaretskii:
>> There's nothing wrong with the logo, it's a little puzzle in itself,
>> if you want.
>
> I agree, but on the Mac all application icons were redesigned lately to
> a square look, while the Emacs icon is the only one that still is round.
> So, you might like to change this in the NextStep port, regardless of
> the Emacs logo.

I've just realised that there already is a draft for a flat and square
Emacs icon for the Mac that fits neatly into the dock:

https://github.com/SavchenkoValeriy/emacs-icons

Best regards,
Jürgen.

Re: "About Emacs" page

[Summer Emacs]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1102 bytes --]

> On Sep 20, 2024, at 09:41, Juergen Fenn <jfenn@gmx.net> wrote:
> 
> Am 20.09.24 um 09:09 Uhr schrieb Juergen Fenn:
>> 
>> Am 20.09.24 um 08:41 Uhr schrieb Eli Zaretskii:
>>> There's nothing wrong with the logo, it's a little puzzle in itself,
>>> if you want.
>> 
>> I agree, but on the Mac all application icons were redesigned lately to
>> a square look, while the Emacs icon is the only one that still is round.
>> So, you might like to change this in the NextStep port, regardless of
>> the Emacs logo.
> 
> I've just realised that there already is a draft for a flat and square
> Emacs icon for the Mac that fits neatly into the dock:
> 
> https://github.com/SavchenkoValeriy/emacs-icons
> 

I wasn’t actually speaking about the icon, and I already use that one with the emacs-plus install. I was talking about the logo on the About Emacs page. The icon is very nice though and I like it a lot.

> Best regards,
> Jürgen.

Summer Emacs ☀️🐃 
summeremacs@summerstar.me
“Shake it Off <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_JiMkVx0FU>” - Taylor Swift 💖




[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 9629 bytes --]

Re: "About Emacs" page

[Summer Emacs]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1630 bytes --]

> On Sep 20, 2024, at 09:00, Sławomir Grochowski <slawomir.grochowski@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Summer Emacs <summeremacs@summerstar.me> writes:
>> Emacs Logo (as usual or changed - either way)
>> 
>> —> New Emacs User? Click here. <--
>> Emacs Tutorial
>> Emacs Manual
>> Emacs Guided Tour
>> Ordering Manuals
>> 
>> GNU and Freedom
>> Copying Conditions
>> Getting New Versions
>> Absence of Warranty
>> 
>> Authors
>> Contributing
> 
> Good work! 
> 
Thanks. Putting order in stuff is part of my job. 🙃

> 1. The new links order is definitely a good idea. I support it.  
> 2. I also think the logo is ugly and might deter new users. But let's move
> this topic to another thread because there will be a long and heated
> discussion about personal preferences here. So let's first focus on
> improving the order of links.  

Yea. I seem to have repeatedly hit the hornet’s nest with a very large stick with this topic. 🐝

> 3. Agree with others that the 'Click here' button doesn't fit with Emacs.
> 

Yea, it stands out. I’ll give you that. It could just say “New Emacs User Tutorial”, but that would conflict a bit with the Emacs Tutorial right under it. Also, I know it’ll be seen as “new” as in “we didn’t do computers like that back in the day”, but most new users to apps expect a “click here” sorta thing. And I’m trying to reach them. So I’m open to how to do that. 🙃

> -- 
> Slawomir Grochowski

Summer Emacs ☀️🐃 
summeremacs@summerstar.me
“Shake it Off <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_JiMkVx0FU>” - Taylor Swift 💖




[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4786 bytes --]

Re: "About Emacs" page

[Ulrich Mueller]

>>>>> On Fri, 20 Sep 2024, Juergen Fenn wrote:

> I agree, but on the Mac all application icons were redesigned lately to
> a square look, while the Emacs icon is the only one that still is round.
> So, you might like to change this in the NextStep port, regardless of
> the Emacs logo.

A chance to get the Kitchen Sink back!
https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TheKitchenSink

SCNR,
Ulrich

Re: "About Emacs" page

[Emanuel Berg]

Summer Emacs wrote:

> I wasn't actually speaking about the icon, and I already use
> that one with the emacs-plus install. I was talking about
> the logo on the About Emacs page.

It is called a splash screen. This is the conventional name
but actually it used in Emacs as well.

If it bores you, you can do:

  (setq inhibit-startup-screen t)

The logo is from 2001 BTW.

To me, the splash screen and 'about' are two different things.
The splash screen should be cool and directed to new users,
while the meta-Emacs and legal info that we have is 'about'.

The line

  This is GNU Emacs, one component of the GNU/Linux operating system.

is a little comical, it sounds like you have found one
component and now you should go look for the others?

Today at least, no one says "the GNU/Linux operating system".
Which one is that?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: "About Emacs" page

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2024 09:41:45 +0200
> From: Juergen Fenn <jfenn@gmx.net>
> 
> 
> 
> Am 20.09.24 um 09:09 Uhr schrieb Juergen Fenn:
> >
> >
> > Am 20.09.24 um 08:41 Uhr schrieb Eli Zaretskii:
> >> There's nothing wrong with the logo, it's a little puzzle in itself,
> >> if you want.
> >
> > I agree, but on the Mac all application icons were redesigned lately to
> > a square look, while the Emacs icon is the only one that still is round.
> > So, you might like to change this in the NextStep port, regardless of
> > the Emacs logo.
> 
> I've just realised that there already is a draft for a flat and square
> Emacs icon for the Mac that fits neatly into the dock:
> 
> https://github.com/SavchenkoValeriy/emacs-icons

The "icon" which started this thread is not what you have in mind,
it's the image displayed on the "splash screen".

Re: "About Emacs" page

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Ulrich Mueller <ulm@gentoo.org>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2024 10:34:15 +0200
> 
> >>>>> On Fri, 20 Sep 2024, Juergen Fenn wrote:
> 
> > I agree, but on the Mac all application icons were redesigned lately to
> > a square look, while the Emacs icon is the only one that still is round.
> > So, you might like to change this in the NextStep port, regardless of
> > the Emacs logo.
> 
> A chance to get the Kitchen Sink back!
> https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TheKitchenSink

We could start by having this in etc/images, if someone volunteers to
produce at least XPM and SVG color images from that.

Re: "About Emacs" page

[Juergen Fenn]

Am 20.09.24 um 12:23 Uhr schrieb Eli Zaretskii:

>> https://github.com/SavchenkoValeriy/emacs-icons
>
> The "icon" which started this thread is not what you have in mind,
> it's the image displayed on the "splash screen".
>

I am aware of this. But I think this is the point where we should start
to improve system integration when it comes to design, not the splash
screen.

Best regards,
Jürgen.

Re: "About Emacs" page

[Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 845 bytes --]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Ulrich Mueller <ulm@gentoo.org>
>> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2024 10:34:15 +0200
>> 
>> >>>>> On Fri, 20 Sep 2024, Juergen Fenn wrote:
>> 
>> > I agree, but on the Mac all application icons were redesigned lately to
>> > a square look, while the Emacs icon is the only one that still is round.
>> > So, you might like to change this in the NextStep port, regardless of
>> > the Emacs logo.
>> 
>> A chance to get the Kitchen Sink back!
>> https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TheKitchenSink
>
> We could start by having this in etc/images, if someone volunteers to
> produce at least XPM and SVG color images from that.

Good idea!  Simple things first, here is 48x48 xpm version.  I have made
it from PNG on the given web page.  Of course, a SVG version will
require much more work.

[-- Attachment #2: kitchen-sink.xpm --]
[-- Type: image/xpm, Size: 4946 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 18 bytes --]

-- 
Manuel Giraud

Re: "About Emacs" page

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Manuel Giraud <manuel@ledu-giraud.fr>
> Cc: Ulrich Mueller <ulm@gentoo.org>,  jfenn@gmx.net,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2024 17:52:59 +0200
> 
> >> A chance to get the Kitchen Sink back!
> >> https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TheKitchenSink
> >
> > We could start by having this in etc/images, if someone volunteers to
> > produce at least XPM and SVG color images from that.
> 
> Good idea!  Simple things first, here is 48x48 xpm version.  I have made
> it from PNG on the given web page.  Of course, a SVG version will
> require much more work.

Thanks, but I hoped the XPM image could be a color image as well.

Re: "About Emacs" page

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I do think the idea of a prominent "Click here" button would be a good idea!

I think we have prominent info about how to get to the tutorial.
But some other way could e good to add.

Where would you suggest putting this, and hwo would it work?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: "About Emacs" page

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Sure! I’m talking about the About Emacs page you first see when
  > you boot up Emacs the first time. (C-h C-a). I will detail more
  > thoughts about it in another email in the thread.

That page is the way it is because there is a lot of information we
want to show people right at the start.  Some for our purposes, some
because users (not ONLY NEW users!) may find it helpful.  We tried to
set up this page to make those things prominent and easy to find.

  > 2) GNU and Freedom - There’s a philosophy here about Emacs, I
  > recognise that, but is it really what most people want to read about
  > when they first open up Emacs?

Teaching people this philosophy is high priority for us.  Emacs is
part of the GNU system. and giving freedom is he purpose of the GNU
system.  So it behooves us to present that in a prominent way.

This is not necessarily the only way or place to present it.
If we see a better way or place, we can switch to that.  Or do both.

  > Getting into the philosophy of Emacs might be important (I
  > think it is at times), but it’s not foremost on people’s minds when
  > they first open Emacs.

The hope is that reading about that issue will make it foremost on
people’s minds, or at least closer to foremost.

  > 3) Absence of Warranty - Okay. Legal. Important to understand but..a
  > little scary. If you’re trying a new product, you don’t want one of
  > the FIRST things you see to say “use at your own risk”.

Our legal advice was to make this very visible.  We must do so.

  > 5) Getting New Versions - Good link to have, not so helpful at the top
  > though. Put it at the bottom below the Emacs philosophy/legal section.

  > 6) Ordering Manuals - This is good! But, it should be under the new
  > users/Emacs tutorials in the same grouping. It makes sense to put it
  > there as it’s the same subject. It’ll still be in the top section that
  > way but grouped better.

  > 7) Emacs Tutorial - That should be right at the top below the new
  > newbie section which I plan on finishing sometime in the coming
  > weeks. The newbie section will also have a link to the Emacs tutorial
  > and info about how to get back to the newbie pages.

  > 9) Emacs Manual - Good. I like. In depth, interesting, but very
  > difficult for a new user to read through. They have to understand the
  > basics first. I think that should go right under the Emacs tutorial
  > which would be right under the newbie users section at the top.

These changes could be considered.  Where to put them is significant
only in a practical way; if a different placement works better, that's
fine to change.

  > 8) Emacs Guided Tour - this is, again, is a great section,
  > however…it’s confusing to new users (as explained in one of my last
  > emails). It should be near the bottom of the top section because it’s
  > not *really* a guided tour.

Should we change its contents to make it a real guided tour?
Should we call it something else that fits the facts better?
What name do you suggest?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: "About Emacs" page

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2024 00:09:45 -0400
> 
>   > 5) Getting New Versions - Good link to have, not so helpful at the top
>   > though. Put it at the bottom below the Emacs philosophy/legal section.
> 
>   > 6) Ordering Manuals - This is good! But, it should be under the new
>   > users/Emacs tutorials in the same grouping. It makes sense to put it
>   > there as it’s the same subject. It’ll still be in the top section that
>   > way but grouped better.
> 
>   > 7) Emacs Tutorial - That should be right at the top below the new
>   > newbie section which I plan on finishing sometime in the coming
>   > weeks. The newbie section will also have a link to the Emacs tutorial
>   > and info about how to get back to the newbie pages.
> 
>   > 9) Emacs Manual - Good. I like. In depth, interesting, but very
>   > difficult for a new user to read through. They have to understand the
>   > basics first. I think that should go right under the Emacs tutorial
>   > which would be right under the newbie users section at the top.
> 
> These changes could be considered.  Where to put them is significant
> only in a practical way; if a different placement works better, that's
> fine to change.

They are all a dozen lines in a relatively small window.  One cannot
miss any of them when looking at that window.  We can argue about the
order till kingdom come, but eventually it makes very little
difference.  It isn't like the order says something about their
importance -- they are all important.

>   > 8) Emacs Guided Tour - this is, again, is a great section,
>   > however…it’s confusing to new users (as explained in one of my last
>   > emails). It should be near the bottom of the top section because it’s
>   > not *really* a guided tour.
> 
> Should we change its contents to make it a real guided tour?

Before this happens, someone should write such a tour.  It's a
non-trivial job, to say the least, and my hat's off to whoever will be
bale to pull that.  For now, we have what we have, which isn't ideal,
but better than nothing.  And I don't see anything wrong with its
placement.

Re: "About Emacs" page

[Philip Kaludercic]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > I do think the idea of a prominent "Click here" button would be a good idea!
>
> I think we have prominent info about how to get to the tutorial.
> But some other way could e good to add.
>
> Where would you suggest putting this, and hwo would it work?

I understand that it is easy to gloss over the *About GNU Emacs* buffer
when you start Emacs for the first time, and just want to get started.
Personally, it seems that just setting "Learn basic Emacs keystroke
commands" in a bold type face might help... Of course, then the other
issue is to retain the attention for the duration of the tutorial, but
that might really require something different and more interactive.

-- 
	Philip Kaludercic on siskin

Re: "About Emacs" page

[Summer Emacs]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1707 bytes --]

> On Sep 22, 2024, at 07:26, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
>> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
>> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2024 00:09:45 -0400
>> 
>> These changes could be considered.  Where to put them is significant
>> only in a practical way; if a different placement works better, that's
>> fine to change.
> 
> They are all a dozen lines in a relatively small window.  One cannot
> miss any of them when looking at that window.  We can argue about the
> order till kingdom come, but eventually it makes very little
> difference.  It isn't like the order says something about their
> importance -- they are all important.

Of course. I’m not suggesting we take any of them out - just reorder them a bit into more organised clusters with immediate importance stuff at the top.

>>> 
>> Should we change its contents to make it a real guided tour?
> 
> Before this happens, someone should write such a tour.  It's a
> non-trivial job, to say the least, and my hat's off to whoever will be
> bale to pull that.  For now, we have what we have, which isn't ideal,
> but better than nothing.  And I don't see anything wrong with its
> placement.

That’s literally what I’ve been working on. However, I was out most of the weekend doing other stuff, and I was also very busy with my job before that. I’m trying to get back to it this week, but we’ll see. It will take a while because, as it’s been noted, it is a rather big task to accomplish. 🙃


Summer Emacs ☀️🐃 
summeremacs@summerstar.me
“Shake It Off <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfWlot6h_JM>” - Taylor Swift 💖
#taylorswift and #swifties on Libera




[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 5973 bytes --]

Re: "About Emacs" page

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I understand that it is easy to gloss over the *About GNU Emacs* buffer
  > when you start Emacs for the first time, and just want to get started.
  > Personally, it seems that just setting "Learn basic Emacs keystroke
  > commands" in a bold type face might help...

If it helps, I see nothing against it.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: "About Emacs" page

[Philip Kaludercic]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 622 bytes --]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > I understand that it is easy to gloss over the *About GNU Emacs* buffer
>   > when you start Emacs for the first time, and just want to get started.
>   > Personally, it seems that just setting "Learn basic Emacs keystroke
>   > commands" in a bold type face might help...
>
> If it helps, I see nothing against it.

FWIW this is all that it would take:


[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 673 bytes --]

diff --git a/lisp/startup.el b/lisp/startup.el
index 738eec772ec..1ec2c8fc581 100644
--- a/lisp/startup.el
+++ b/lisp/startup.el
@@ -1839,6 +1839,7 @@ fancy-about-text
      :link ("Ordering Manuals" ,(lambda (_button) (view-order-manuals)))
      "\tBuying printed manuals from the FSF\n"
      "\n"
+     :face (variable-pitch bold)
      :link ("Emacs Tutorial" ,(lambda (_button) (help-with-tutorial)))
      "\tLearn basic Emacs keystroke commands"
      ,(lambda ()
@@ -1860,6 +1861,7 @@ fancy-about-text
 	 (if (string= en tut)
 	     ""
 	   (concat " (" title ")"))))
+     :face variable-pitch
      "\n"
      :link ("Emacs Guided Tour"
 	    ,(lambda (_button)

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 34 bytes --]


-- 
	Philip Kaludercic on siskin

Re: "About Emacs" page

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Manuel Giraud <manuel@ledu-giraud.fr>
> Cc: Ulrich Mueller <ulm@gentoo.org>,  jfenn@gmx.net,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2024 17:52:59 +0200
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >> From: Ulrich Mueller <ulm@gentoo.org>
> >> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> >> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2024 10:34:15 +0200
> >> 
> >> >>>>> On Fri, 20 Sep 2024, Juergen Fenn wrote:
> >> 
> >> > I agree, but on the Mac all application icons were redesigned lately to
> >> > a square look, while the Emacs icon is the only one that still is round.
> >> > So, you might like to change this in the NextStep port, regardless of
> >> > the Emacs logo.
> >> 
> >> A chance to get the Kitchen Sink back!
> >> https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TheKitchenSink
> >
> > We could start by having this in etc/images, if someone volunteers to
> > produce at least XPM and SVG color images from that.
> 
> Good idea!  Simple things first, here is 48x48 xpm version.  I have made
> it from PNG on the given web page.  Of course, a SVG version will
> require much more work.

Thanks, added.

A color XPM image (as well as other formats) would be even better.

Re: "About Emacs" page

[Ulrich Mueller]

>>>>> On Sat, 28 Sep 2024, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> >> A chance to get the Kitchen Sink back!
>> >> https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TheKitchenSink
>> >
>> > We could start by having this in etc/images, if someone volunteers to
>> > produce at least XPM and SVG color images from that.
>> 
>> Good idea!  Simple things first, here is 48x48 xpm version.  I have made
>> it from PNG on the given web page.  Of course, a SVG version will
>> require much more work.

> Thanks, added.

Shouldn't the file (or etc/images/README) have a copyright/license
notice, or is it too simple to be copyrightable?

I had traced the origin of the kitchen sink icon some time ago because
Gentoo distributes it as part of the app-emacs/emacs-common package:
https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/emacs-tools.git/tree/icons?h=emacs-common

The earliest instance that I could find was file src/sink.h in
Emacs 18.41 which was released in 1987. The file didn't have any
copyright notice back then.

Re: "About Emacs" page

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Ulrich Mueller <ulm@gentoo.org>
> Cc: Manuel Giraud <manuel@ledu-giraud.fr>,  jfenn@gmx.net,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2024 12:55:57 +0200
> 
> >>>>> On Sat, 28 Sep 2024, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> >> Good idea!  Simple things first, here is 48x48 xpm version.  I have made
> >> it from PNG on the given web page.  Of course, a SVG version will
> >> require much more work.
> 
> > Thanks, added.
> 
> Shouldn't the file (or etc/images/README) have a copyright/license
> notice, or is it too simple to be copyrightable?

Feel free to add it, if you know what to say.

> I had traced the origin of the kitchen sink icon some time ago because
> Gentoo distributes it as part of the app-emacs/emacs-common package:
> https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/emacs-tools.git/tree/icons?h=emacs-common
> 
> The earliest instance that I could find was file src/sink.h in
> Emacs 18.41 which was released in 1987. The file didn't have any
> copyright notice back then.

IANAL, but maybe Richard (CC'ed) could help us.