From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Martin=20Edstr=C3=B6m?=" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Reconsider defaults for use-package-vc-prefer-newest Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2024 16:30:41 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: References: <86y13sdbbx.fsf@gnu.org> <86v7yvde74.fsf@gnu.org> <86cyl3cwhw.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="17089"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "emacs-devel" To: "Eli Zaretskii" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 18 16:31:35 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sqviP-0004Ep-Qb for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 18 Sep 2024 16:31:34 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sqviF-0007Wy-2e; Wed, 18 Sep 2024 10:31:23 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sqviC-0007WM-2n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Sep 2024 10:31:20 -0400 Original-Received: from mailtransmit05.runbox.com ([2a0c:5a00:149::26]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sqvi9-0006pS-My for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Sep 2024 10:31:19 -0400 Original-Received: from mailtransmit03.runbox ([10.9.9.163] helo=aibo.runbox.com) by mailtransmit05.runbox.com with esmtps (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1sqvhv-002K5K-3n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Sep 2024 16:31:03 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=runbox.eu; s=selector1; h=Message-Id:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Subject:CC:To:From: MIME-Version:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type; bh=Jzrl6lKLYSyb964ON/BypKjqeCuVFAVe9kjJKiGNEkE=; b=qXr60TTSU2rjY4K7jncXwJLogB feZp/yN9bfeRzcdYj3Bw1F5VOV1dgwrgCSuOgfZeKbRSqQQEtxojD5ySEWo/10z5C0iWQ7Gg9MOBl q/vr0/6GDzLmNk+Zo+wsNawwM43/ZniP/lKsxWpmFHkWIL2uEVRKQOwFMXoitcNaRNmahljy/uOMY zRc42SrSG7guRKGUMqWBuKVBgSfCFF4AJUb3l0x9Ecv+tmzFv/Lqm5+yEE0eXu3Kz+gACNRFvyCMX stbdPcrhpUzpQ6BOf9uPoht7DrSq2QV6wXLHF8G6u7nLGMVKaj+oKDtxkUGbP8HFhJIHXQQhdhV6t uXLDtHIw==; Original-Received: from [10.9.9.128] (helo=rmmprod06.runbox) by mailtransmit03.runbox with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1sqvhZ-000484-Qn; Wed, 18 Sep 2024 16:30:41 +0200 Original-Received: from mail by rmmprod06.runbox with local (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1sqvhZ-0000di-Pc; Wed, 18 Sep 2024 16:30:41 +0200 Content-Disposition: inline Original-Received: from [Authenticated alias (1196375)] by runbox.com with http (RMM6); Wed, 18 Sep 2024 14:30:41 GMT X-RMM-Aliasid: 1196375 X-Mailer: RMM6 In-Reply-To: <86cyl3cwhw.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a0c:5a00:149::26; envelope-from=meedstrom@runbox.eu; helo=mailtransmit05.runbox.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:323723 Archived-At: On Mon, 16 Sep 2024 20:57:15 +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > [1] https://github.com/slotThe/vc-use-package >=20 > That's a different package, so I don't see why we should necessarily > follow its decisions. When users migrate to use-package :vc, they > should expect some changes in the default behavior. >=20 > > You cannot rely on users to configure this kind of thing for themselves= , most of them would not know the reason why things broke. It is not a matt= er of "liking" the default, since breakage in one direction would be much m= ore severe than is possible to encounter in the other direction (years out = of date vs. slightly too new). >=20 > Nowadays an Internet search will bring the answers very quickly and > efficiently. And if that's not enough, there are enough user-level > help forums where people could ask questions and get useful answers. >=20 > IOW, "not a catastrophe". >=20 > > It is absolutely Emacs' responsibility, at least as long as stability f= or users is desired. Isn't it the reason to favor conservative defaults? Av= oiding breakage? I get this new default comes from a good place, intending = stability, but it is a radical departure from what has been the norm establ= ished by Straight/Quelpa/el-get and their use-package integrations, and tha= t will work against stability.=20=20 >=20 > We can only be responsible for stability when our own implementation > and decisions are concerned. We cannot be expected to blindly follow > someone else's decision in the name of "stability" for users who > switch from other packages, this kind of expectation is completely > unreasonable. I am sorry. I use the word "responsibility" perhaps different from many pe= ople, I think of responsibility as basically good, a nice thing to have, bu= t as words go it's a powder-keg with different interpretations. I did not m= ean to be entitled nor expect the Emacs volunteers to do any services for m= e or anyone else. I also have not contributed any core Emacs code (yet), and I am very gratef= ul to those who have, such as yourself, Eli. We are currently enjoying a Golden Age of Emacs, and I see that as being a = lot about the Emacs Lisp ecosystem wrapped around the Emacs core, and of co= urse, Emacs core doing what it can to be friendly to that ecosystem. To me= , Emacs *is* the ecosystem. That frames my opinions about this new default setting. It does not seem t= o me like the theoretical benefits outweigh the costs to GNU reputation eac= h time a GitHub issue is raised to a developer who preferred to just do rol= ling releases (e.g. just today I had to warn someone at https://github.com/= JuliaEditorSupport/julia-emacs/issues/212). I believe I've said all I had to say, but to be very clear for the record, = I consider this default to be radical, not conservative, at least from the = perspective of causing least breakage. I also do not think it is good stew= ardship of the ecosystem to say that each user can just Google the solution= once they face breakage. It affects developers too, who may not have lear= ned about this default, and lose users as a consequence. Anyhoo. The concept of versioned releases is good, and if git/hg tags are c= hecked, that's great. Maybe it's not the end of the world that devs who wan= t pure "rolling releases" are forced to adopt some sort of automated toolch= ain that pretends to cut releases for every commit, or insert a warning mes= sage to their users to upgrade to the master branch. But novice devs and ex= perimental packages frequently fit into this box so I have mixed feelings a= bout that.=