From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Martin=20Edstr=C3=B6m?=" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Reconsider defaults for use-package-vc-prefer-newest Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2024 18:15:45 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: References: <86y13sdbbx.fsf@gnu.org> <86v7yvde74.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="31680"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "emacs-devel" To: "Eli Zaretskii" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 16 18:16:45 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sqEP7-00085Y-0Q for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 16 Sep 2024 18:16:45 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sqEOJ-00080x-Kl; Mon, 16 Sep 2024 12:15:55 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sqEOG-00080P-G1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Sep 2024 12:15:52 -0400 Original-Received: from mailtransmit05.runbox.com ([2a0c:5a00:149::26]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sqEOE-0002yE-3G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Sep 2024 12:15:52 -0400 Original-Received: from mailtransmit02.runbox ([10.9.9.162] helo=aibo.runbox.com) by mailtransmit05.runbox.com with esmtps (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1sqEOA-00EFOz-19 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Sep 2024 18:15:46 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=runbox.eu; s=selector1; h=Message-Id:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Subject:CC:To:From: MIME-Version:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type; bh=+yer9VSmo+dVUT9goiiawD0QC03wcIfnhkX+4x47wWs=; b=VBH/oIHMT11ACXI4FKqJoWGRyF tEY9PDXvMnVEtEmbCvmXmDgqhxCpw6DwSgeCNWeX55lzmjOevxVHwkzewJe7yZuYcJNMJF6qvyLqQ uMTiGoczlE68we9PLn4dI62hyOolDrRWwV8kVEUvB645nbqKE3p9Jbhpb/U1EkspjRk1BTaUrAoUS li3Rpj9BwSSfB47e4W0gNJpuj7t2zxoSQ6jscq8GFP5Vv70ifF0wp99B+AfA3FxqucK7X0mxudCeA TWwwzelIFfkCvajKCYDb2ibXfkRGwe9av+SPhOTv9aKDG0B8vVs1eqzm1NT+9qP/0i+2V7JK8HtUE JpVnduMw==; Original-Received: from [10.9.9.129] (helo=rmmprod07.runbox) by mailtransmit02.runbox with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1sqEO9-0004tD-Iw; Mon, 16 Sep 2024 18:15:45 +0200 Original-Received: from mail by rmmprod07.runbox with local (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1sqEO9-0004DL-HQ; Mon, 16 Sep 2024 18:15:45 +0200 Content-Disposition: inline Original-Received: from [Authenticated alias (1196375)] by runbox.com with http (RMM6); Mon, 16 Sep 2024 16:15:45 GMT X-RMM-Aliasid: 1196375 X-Mailer: RMM6 In-Reply-To: <86v7yvde74.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a0c:5a00:149::26; envelope-from=meedstrom@runbox.eu; helo=mailtransmit05.runbox.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:323668 Archived-At: Sorry the last email was incomplete, my keyboard has a bug. On Mon, 16 Sep 2024 14:34:55 +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > While the option is a new thing in Emacs 30, use-package :vc itself is = a new thing in Emacs 30, so it is not as if there is an old behavior to emu= late. I should also point out that the module it was inspired by, vc-use-p= ackage, actually had the opposite default! So, that setting has already be= en tested by lots of users on Emacs <29, and it is Emacs 30 that will chang= e things. >=20 > Yes, you said that in your original message, and I understand that > argument. But as I responded, I'm not convinced the two options must > always be in sync, as they are used differently for different purposes. Okay, I'll accept that for the command package-vc-install, as I have not th= ought much about its use cases.=20=20 I want to call attention to the old use-package :vc, shipped under the conf= using name vc-use-package [1], that people could install on Emacs 29 and ea= rlier. The Emacs 30 use-package :vc is a drop-in almost 1:1 replacement fo= r this thing. It had the opposite default behavior from the default Emacs = 30 is about to have. That change needs justification, not the other way ar= ound! [1] https://github.com/slotThe/vc-use-package > > I should also point out that the catastrophe occurs not at release time= , but years afterwards, when we're on Emacs 31, 32, 33... but devs still wa= nt to support Emacs 30, getting worse with time. So I do hope that it will = be possible to change a setting like this with Emacs 30.2 or some other "bu= gfix" release. >=20 > There's no reason to do this for user options, since customizing an > option if the user doesn't like its default is easy. You cannot rely on users to configure this kind of thing for themselves, mo= st of them would not know the reason why things broke. It is not a matter o= f "liking" the default, since breakage in one direction would be much more = severe than is possible to encounter in the other direction (years out of d= ate vs. slightly too new). It is absolutely Emacs' responsibility, at least as long as stability for u= sers is desired. Isn't it the reason to favor conservative defaults? Avoidi= ng breakage? I get this new default comes from a good place, intending stab= ility, but it is a radical departure from what has been the norm establishe= d by Straight/Quelpa/el-get and their use-package integrations, and that wi= ll work against stability.=20=20 >=20 > > As for making devs get their act together, sure, they could do that. Bu= t three problems with that attitude: > >=20 > > 1. It makes sense to impose requirements on devs who are submitting pac= kages to NonGNU Elpa, but this setting affects everyone, including those wh= o have not opted in to such requirements. > > 2. Not every dev will get the memo, naturally, and the ones who get hur= t in the meantime are users, who believe that the dev's package is broken w= hen it is not (and the dev should not be punished for being out of the loop= ). > > 3. The devs who do get the memo, and were previously content with a fro= zen Package-Version, will resent GNU for forcing what they perceive as a wo= rkaround. I do not think that is worth it. Like it or not, MELPA has allow= ed many of us to taste of the convenience of git/hg tags, and it didn't use= to be a problem... until Emacs 30. Now they have to adopt some toolchain l= ike sisyphus.el and pollute the commit log with two extra commits for every= new version, to solve what used to be a non-issue. >=20 > I consider advancing Package-Version when significant changes are made > a simple and uncontroversial thing to do for any package developer. I > cannot imagine why someone who wants their package in good shape to > regard this as some annoyance. This email discussion risks getting long, but let me know if you want me to= describe why I do not find it simple. For now, I believe the relevant thi= ng from Emacs' perspective is that there does exist developers who will not= advance Package-Version, nevermind why.=