From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Martin Edstrom" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Reconsider defaults for use-package-vc-prefer-newest Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2024 21:46:32 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: References: <86y13sdbbx.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="17983"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "emacs-devel" To: "Eli Zaretskii" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 15 21:47:31 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1spvDV-0004UU-Ve for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 15 Sep 2024 21:47:30 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1spvCl-0005d4-Ub; Sun, 15 Sep 2024 15:46:43 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1spvCj-0005cc-UI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Sep 2024 15:46:41 -0400 Original-Received: from mailtransmit04.runbox.com ([2a0c:5a00:149::25]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1spvCh-0003vg-7v; Sun, 15 Sep 2024 15:46:41 -0400 Original-Received: from mailtransmit02.runbox ([10.9.9.162] helo=aibo.runbox.com) by mailtransmit04.runbox.com with esmtps (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1spvCb-00BbZq-3Q; Sun, 15 Sep 2024 21:46:33 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=runbox.eu; s=selector1; h=Message-Id:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Subject:CC:To:From: MIME-Version:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type; bh=qUmRthn5ReBnvyD1rB1f5EpnK2orSBgNd6RUabytpts=; b=dtJIZ3OJ5ypsQZlT4eMaF7jlXF M7oKsOIRuRtPkgmcmF1XdAlamI60QRoTbAf5otVZCxV2Xax9AhNHUp/82NSfy++qRDGzIHMjPyvmQ i8A0jBq6e75iZ8w4+XuGIdDN56bIhSTL6Jh6erRW194QbSaxyq5RxzBe5DiZyt891hFcd6BTXtH3r cbjnSaR8qEd6YSe988tA+FW8wBvgT8RUPJKiarnR1rK83XGFplo0OP8fmiYZ+tDHPUOi6hJkS17PD JXQvKUSRq7vaxLYmvKG7aYtOcKzNdm5ZdNYvh2RIpMrsXvwPImLx/20gwmSptEA6Sda3U2/m3CbBm SWs6Rr2Q==; Original-Received: from [10.9.9.127] (helo=rmmprod05.runbox) by mailtransmit02.runbox with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1spvCa-00038U-NZ; Sun, 15 Sep 2024 21:46:32 +0200 Original-Received: from mail by rmmprod05.runbox with local (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1spvCa-00018D-MX; Sun, 15 Sep 2024 21:46:32 +0200 Content-Disposition: inline Original-Received: from [Authenticated alias (1196375)] by runbox.com with http (RMM6); Sun, 15 Sep 2024 19:46:32 GMT X-RMM-Aliasid: 1196375 X-Mailer: RMM6 In-Reply-To: <86y13sdbbx.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a0c:5a00:149::25; envelope-from=meedstrom@runbox.eu; helo=mailtransmit04.runbox.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:323641 Archived-At: > > From: "Martin Edstr=C3=B6m" > > CC: "emacs-devel" > > Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2024 19:38:55 +0200 (CEST) > >=20 > > Now that we're on Emacs 30.0.91, I feel the need to call this out as a = fairly release-critical bug. Perhaps I should have emailed bug-gnu-emacs, b= ut now that'd split the discussion over two places, so I'll keep it here. > >=20 > > If this is the kind of setting we can flip in a patch release, then the= re's no rush. Maybe someone can weigh in about that. > >=20 > > Otherwise it would remain as a source of instability for many years, an= d conscientious devs would have to insert a check for Emacs 30 that reminds= the user that the package may be terribly outdated. > >=20 > > At least one other developer agrees the current setting is "fragile" (h= ttps://github.com/melpa/melpa/pull/9133#issuecomment-2351653325). >=20 > I've read this thread, and I must confess that I'm not convinced. > Besides being waaay too late for such changes in Emacs 30, I also > don't think we have enough experience at this time to make such > decisions. Both package-vc and use-package are relatively very new in > Emacs, and we have yet to collect enough user experience and > understanding of what are the expectations and how they should work > together. Moreover, use-package-vc-prefer-newest is a new option in > Emacs 30, and we rarely make new optional behaviors take effect by > default as soon as they are introduced, to avoid behavior changes > which will surprise and perhaps annoy. We made it an option to make > it easily adaptable to user preferences and needs. >=20 > Some of the rationale (like outdated Package-Version) also sounds like > it isn't our problem to solve. It should be easy for the respective > package developers to get their act together in this matter. It is > also TRT for them. When a user uses use-package, he/she doesn't > necessarily want the latest commit, so the change isn't as obvious as > you make it sound, IMO. >=20 > Bottom line: I think no catastrophe happens if Emacs 30 is released > with the current default value of use-package-vc-prefer-newest. It's > a user option, so customizing it is easy for people who want the > latest commit. Even if we are making a mistake (for reasons we will > learn later), first time you do something there are always some rough > edges, so we can be excused for not realizing something due to lack of > experience. >=20 > Thanks. Thanks for engaging! (What is TRT?) While the option is a new thing in Emacs 30, use-package :vc itself is a ne= w thing in Emacs 30, so it is not as if there is an old behavior to emulate= . I should also point out that the module it was inspired by, vc-use-packa= ge, actually had the opposite default! So, that setting has already been t= ested by lots of users on Emacs <29, and it is Emacs 30 that will change th= ings. Anyway. If that's not good enough, maybe we can test the new setting in Ema= cs 31, and backport to Emacs 30.2 in the future. I should also point out that the catastrophe occurs not at release time, bu= t years afterwards, when we're on Emacs 31, 32, 33... but devs still want t= o support Emacs 30, getting worse with time. So I do hope that it will be p= ossible to change a setting like this with Emacs 30.2 or some other "bugfix= " release. As for making devs get their act together, sure, they could do that. But th= ree problems with that attitude: 1. It makes sense to impose requirements on devs who are submitting package= s to NonGNU Elpa, but this setting affects everyone, including those who ha= ve not opted in to such requirements. 2. Not every dev will get the memo, naturally, and the ones who get hurt in= the meantime are users, who believe that the dev's package is broken when = it is not (and the dev should not be punished for being out of the loop). 3. The devs who do get the memo, and were previously content with a frozen = Package-Version, will resent GNU for forcing what they perceive as a workar= ound. I do not think that is worth it. Like it or not, MELPA has allowed m= any of us to taste of the convenience of git/hg tags, and it didn't use to = be a problem... until Emacs 30. Now they have to adopt some toolchain like = sisyphus.el and pollute the commit log with two extra commits for every new= version, to solve what used to be a non-issue.=