replacement of find-file-not-found-hooks

replacement of find-file-not-found-hooks

[Uwe Brauer via Emacs development discussions.]

Hi 
According to the news:


** Some functions and variables obsolete since Emacs 21 or 22 have been removed:
'c-toggle-auto-state', 'find-file-not-found-hooks',
'ls-lisp-dired-ignore-case', 'query-replace-regexp-eval'.

I am still using an old (starting in 1988) but very useful package called 
auto-insert-tkld.el (automatic insertion of text into new files.)

It uses 
(add-hook 'find-file-not-found-hooks 'insert-auto-insert-files 'append)

Now it seems that hook has been removed what shall I use instead?

Backward compatibility, sigh


Regards

Uwe Brauer 


-- 
I strongly condemn Hamas heinous despicable pogroms/atrocities on Israel
I strongly condemn Putin's war of aggression against Ukraine.
I support to deliver weapons to Ukraine's military. 
I support the EU and NATO membership of Ukraine. 

[Solved] (was: replacement of find-file-not-found-hooks)

[Uwe Brauer via Emacs development discussions.]

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>>> "Edd" == Emacs development discussions <Uwe> writes:

> Hi 
> According to the news:


> ** Some functions and variables obsolete since Emacs 21 or 22 have been removed:
> 'c-toggle-auto-state', 'find-file-not-found-hooks',
> 'ls-lisp-dired-ignore-case', 'query-replace-regexp-eval'.

(defalias 'find-file-not-found-hooks     'find-file-not-found-functions)

Is the answer


-- 
I strongly condemn Hamas heinous despicable pogroms/atrocities on Israel
I strongly condemn Putin's war of aggression against Ukraine.
I support to deliver weapons to Ukraine's military. 
I support the EU and NATO membership of Ukraine. 


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Re: replacement of find-file-not-found-hooks

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2024 16:52:13 +0200
> From:  Uwe Brauer via "Emacs development discussions." <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
> According to the news:
> 
> 
> ** Some functions and variables obsolete since Emacs 21 or 22 have been removed:
> 'c-toggle-auto-state', 'find-file-not-found-hooks',
> 'ls-lisp-dired-ignore-case', 'query-replace-regexp-eval'.
> 
> I am still using an old (starting in 1988) but very useful package called 
> auto-insert-tkld.el (automatic insertion of text into new files.)
> 
> It uses 
> (add-hook 'find-file-not-found-hooks 'insert-auto-insert-files 'append)
> 
> Now it seems that hook has been removed what shall I use instead?

You should use find-file-not-found-functions.

Re: replacement of find-file-not-found-hooks

[Andreas Schwab]

On Jul 20 2024, Uwe Brauer via "Emacs development discussions." wrote:

> According to the news:
>
>
> ** Some functions and variables obsolete since Emacs 21 or 22 have been removed:
> 'c-toggle-auto-state', 'find-file-not-found-hooks',
> 'ls-lisp-dired-ignore-case', 'query-replace-regexp-eval'.
>
> I am still using an old (starting in 1988) but very useful package called 
> auto-insert-tkld.el (automatic insertion of text into new files.)
>
> It uses 
> (add-hook 'find-file-not-found-hooks 'insert-auto-insert-files 'append)
>
> Now it seems that hook has been removed what shall I use instead?

According to the news:

*** A number of hooks have been renamed to better follow the conventions:

'find-file-not-found-hooks' to 'find-file-not-found-functions',

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 7578 EB47 D4E5 4D69 2510  2552 DF73 E780 A9DA AEC1
"And now for something completely different."

Re: replacement of find-file-not-found-hooks

[Uwe Brauer via Emacs development discussions.]

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>>> "AS" == Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org> writes:

> On Jul 20 2024, Uwe Brauer via "Emacs development discussions." wrote:
>> According to the news:
>> 
>> 
>> ** Some functions and variables obsolete since Emacs 21 or 22 have
>> been removed: 'c-toggle-auto-state', 'find-file-not-found-hooks',
>> 'ls-lisp-dired-ignore-case', 'query-replace-regexp-eval'.
>> 
>> I am still using an old (starting in 1988) but very useful package
>> called auto-insert-tkld.el (automatic insertion of text into new
>> files.)
>> 
>> It uses 
>> (add-hook 'find-file-not-found-hooks 'insert-auto-insert-files 'append)
>> 
>> Now it seems that hook has been removed what shall I use instead?

> According to the news:

> *** A number of hooks have been renamed to better follow the conventions:

> 'find-file-not-found-hooks' to 'find-file-not-found-functions',

Thanks but then a hook is no longer called a hook? Confusing, isn't it?



-- 
I strongly condemn Hamas heinous despicable pogroms/atrocities on Israel
I strongly condemn Putin's war of aggression against Ukraine.
I support to deliver weapons to Ukraine's military. 
I support the EU and NATO membership of Ukraine. 


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Re: replacement of find-file-not-found-hooks

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 17:00:39 +0200
> From:  Uwe Brauer via "Emacs development discussions." <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
> >>> "AS" == Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org> writes:
> 
> > According to the news:
> 
> > *** A number of hooks have been renamed to better follow the conventions:
> 
> > 'find-file-not-found-hooks' to 'find-file-not-found-functions',
> 
> Thanks but then a hook is no longer called a hook? Confusing, isn't it?

Not if you read the ELisp manual, which says:

     Most of the hooks in Emacs are “normal hooks”.  These variables
  contain lists of functions to be called with no arguments.  By
  convention, whenever the hook name ends in ‘-hook’, that tells you it is
  normal.  We try to make all hooks normal, as much as possible, so that
  you can use them in a uniform way.

     Every major mode command is supposed to run a normal hook called the
  “mode hook” as one of the last steps of initialization.  This makes it
  easy for a user to customize the behavior of the mode, by overriding the
  buffer-local variable assignments already made by the mode.  Most minor
  mode functions also run a mode hook at the end.  But hooks are used in
  other contexts too.  For example, the hook ‘suspend-hook’ runs just
  before Emacs suspends itself (*note Suspending Emacs::).

     If the hook variable's name does not end with ‘-hook’, that indicates
  it is probably an “abnormal hook”.  These differ from normal hooks in
  two ways: they can be called with one or more arguments, and their
  return values can be used in some way.  The hook's documentation says
  how the functions are called and how their return values are used.  Any
  functions added to an abnormal hook must follow the hook's calling
  convention.  By convention, abnormal hook names end in ‘-functions’.

     If the name of the variable ends in ‘-predicate’ or ‘-function’
  (singular) then its value must be a function, not a list of functions.
  As with abnormal hooks, the expected arguments and meaning of the return
  value vary across such _single function hooks_.  The details are
  explained in each variable's docstring.

the old name was unconventional in that it ended in "-hooks", so we
renamed it.

Re: replacement of find-file-not-found-hooks

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

The renaming may be good, but there was a reason I did not change that
before: to avoid breaking user code.

Should we make the old name `find-file-not-found-hooks' an alias for
`find-file-not-found-functions'?  Perhaps make it obsolete now, and
rename it in version 32?


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: replacement of find-file-not-found-hooks

[Stefan Kangas]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> Should we make the old name `find-file-not-found-hooks' an alias for
> `find-file-not-found-functions'?  Perhaps make it obsolete now, and
> rename it in version 32?

It was declared obsolete (with `define-obsolete-variable-alias') already
in Emacs version 22.1, and it was subsequently removed in Emacs 29.1.

Re: replacement of find-file-not-found-hooks

[Uwe Brauer]

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>>> "SK" == Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>> Should we make the old name `find-file-not-found-hooks' an alias for
>> `find-file-not-found-functions'?  Perhaps make it obsolete now, and
>> rename it in version 32?

> It was declared obsolete (with `define-obsolete-variable-alias') already
> in Emacs version 22.1, and it was subsequently removed in Emacs 29.1.

Let me add some comments, as a very-long-time user.

The problem I encountered has to do with auto-insert-tkld.el a package
that dates back to 1988, and still works and does the job it was
designed for.

Now renaming a functionality breaks down older packages (and in this
particular case I would have preferred if that hook (or function) had
been called find-file-not-found-hook-functions, or something like this,
because it makes it easier for the user to pin down the problem.

I recently slowed down in trying out the latest emacs versions (that is
master), just because of this issue: renaming functions and variables will
cause me to spend maybe a couple of days fixing things.

Don't get me wrong, if there is a new exciting feature, like full BIDI
support or prettify-symbols-mode, I will try it out.

But nowadays I only upgrade if the packages I use most, like auctex and
orgmode require it.

I wished there was compatibility file, in which old for some reason
obsolete variables, functions etc would go so that the user you upgrade
more swiftly.

Regards

Uwe Brauer

-- 
I strongly condemn Hamas heinous despicable pogroms/atrocities on Israel
I strongly condemn Putin's war of aggression against Ukraine.
I support to deliver weapons to Ukraine's military. 
I support the EU and NATO membership of Ukraine. 


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Re: replacement of find-file-not-found-hooks

[Philip Kaludercic]

Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> writes:

>>>> "SK" == Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>>> Should we make the old name `find-file-not-found-hooks' an alias for
>>> `find-file-not-found-functions'?  Perhaps make it obsolete now, and
>>> rename it in version 32?
>
>> It was declared obsolete (with `define-obsolete-variable-alias') already
>> in Emacs version 22.1, and it was subsequently removed in Emacs 29.1.
>
> Let me add some comments, as a very-long-time user.
>
> The problem I encountered has to do with auto-insert-tkld.el a package
> that dates back to 1988, and still works and does the job it was
> designed for.

When loading or compiling this file, did you encounter warnings that it
was using obsolete variables?

> Now renaming a functionality breaks down older packages (and in this
> particular case I would have preferred if that hook (or function) had
> been called find-file-not-found-hook-functions, or something like this,
> because it makes it easier for the user to pin down the problem.
>
> I recently slowed down in trying out the latest emacs versions (that is
> master), just because of this issue: renaming functions and variables will
> cause me to spend maybe a couple of days fixing things.
>
> Don't get me wrong, if there is a new exciting feature, like full BIDI
> support or prettify-symbols-mode, I will try it out.
>
> But nowadays I only upgrade if the packages I use most, like auctex and
> orgmode require it.
>
> I wished there was compatibility file, in which old for some reason
> obsolete variables, functions etc would go so that the user you upgrade
> more swiftly.
>
> Regards
>
> Uwe Brauer

-- 
	Philip Kaludercic on peregrine

Re: replacement of find-file-not-found-hooks

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>
> Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 08:41:12 +0000
> 
> Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> writes:
> 
> >>>> "SK" == Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> >> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> >>> Should we make the old name `find-file-not-found-hooks' an alias for
> >>> `find-file-not-found-functions'?  Perhaps make it obsolete now, and
> >>> rename it in version 32?
> >
> >> It was declared obsolete (with `define-obsolete-variable-alias') already
> >> in Emacs version 22.1, and it was subsequently removed in Emacs 29.1.
> >
> > Let me add some comments, as a very-long-time user.
> >
> > The problem I encountered has to do with auto-insert-tkld.el a package
> > that dates back to 1988, and still works and does the job it was
> > designed for.
> 
> When loading or compiling this file, did you encounter warnings that it
> was using obsolete variables?

Indeed.  We leave these obsolete aliases for several major releases to
give people enough time to pay attention to those obsolescence
warnings, and change their code before the obsolete
variables/functions are actually deleted.

Re: replacement of find-file-not-found-hooks

[Uwe Brauer]

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> Indeed.  We leave these obsolete aliases for several major releases to
> give people enough time to pay attention to those obsolescence
> warnings, and change their code before the obsolete
> variables/functions are actually deleted.

Several comments, 

    1. I «load» via require and I therefore those message are somewhat
       difficult to notice.

    2. When I compile I of course see the warnings, but do you suggest
       that I just byte compile all my files after installing a new
       Emacs version?

    3. I still find the naming «find-file-not-found-functions»
       and therefore the call
       (add-hook 'find-file-not-found-functions
       'insert-auto-insert-files 'append)
       counterintuitive, (now it is too late, but why wasn't this called
       «find-file-not-found-hook-functions» or something like this).

    4. BTW (define-obsolete-variable-alias 'find-file-not-found-hooks
    'find-file-not-found-functions "22.1") works for me (defalias
    'find-file-not-found-hooks 'find-file-not-found-functions) does not.

    5. I still don't gasp the advantage of renaming functions and
       variables. I understand the benefit of introducing  new functions and
       variables but the benefit of renaming variables and functions I
       fail to see.



















-- 
I strongly condemn Hamas heinous despicable pogroms/atrocities on Israel
I strongly condemn Putin's war of aggression against Ukraine.
I support to deliver weapons to Ukraine's military. 
I support the EU and NATO membership of Ukraine. 


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Re: replacement of find-file-not-found-hooks

[Stefan Kangas]

Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> writes:

>     2. When I compile I of course see the warnings, but do you suggest
>        that I just byte compile all my files after installing a new
>        Emacs version?

These days, "most" packages are installed via some ELPA archive, so
users get them byte-compiled automatically.  The warnings can then, at
least in theory, be reported to an active upstream which would fix them.

Of course, some of us do still keep some old/unmaintained .el libraries
from way back when lying around, and for those packages we have to rely
on more manual processes.  Byte-compiling them is not too hard to do
from Dired (press `B'), for example.

>     3. I still find the naming «find-file-not-found-functions»
>        and therefore the call
>        (add-hook 'find-file-not-found-functions
>        'insert-auto-insert-files 'append)
>        counterintuitive, (now it is too late, but why wasn't this called
>        «find-file-not-found-hook-functions» or something like this).

I think these are just our conventions, basically.

For example, I can't find any variable matching "-hook-functions$", but
we have many matching either "-hook$" or "-functions$".

>     4. BTW (define-obsolete-variable-alias 'find-file-not-found-hooks
>     'find-file-not-found-functions "22.1") works for me (defalias
>     'find-file-not-found-hooks 'find-file-not-found-functions) does not.

You probably want defvaralias instead of defalias (which is for functions).

>     5. I still don't gasp the advantage of renaming functions and
>        variables. I understand the benefit of introducing  new functions and
>        variables but the benefit of renaming variables and functions I
>        fail to see.

The main benefit is that it helps keep Emacs interfaces, variables,
etc. more consistent, which in turn makes Emacs easier to maintain and
use.

Re: replacement of find-file-not-found-hooks

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es>
> Cc: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>, oub@mat.ucm.es,
> 	stefankangas@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 21:34:22 +0200
> 
> > Indeed.  We leave these obsolete aliases for several major releases to
> > give people enough time to pay attention to those obsolescence
> > warnings, and change their code before the obsolete
> > variables/functions are actually deleted.
> 
> Several comments, 
> 
>     1. I «load» via require and I therefore those message are somewhat
>        difficult to notice.

I understand, but you are encouraged to pay attention to these
warnings, if you don't want surprises.

>     2. When I compile I of course see the warnings, but do you suggest
>        that I just byte compile all my files after installing a new
>        Emacs version?

Yes, I'd definitely recommend that.  I do it myself on my systems,
FWIW.

>     3. I still find the naming «find-file-not-found-functions»
>        and therefore the call
>        (add-hook 'find-file-not-found-functions
>        'insert-auto-insert-files 'append)
>        counterintuitive, (now it is too late, but why wasn't this called
>        «find-file-not-found-hook-functions» or something like this).

Longer names are harder to type and read.

>     5. I still don't gasp the advantage of renaming functions and
>        variables. I understand the benefit of introducing  new functions and
>        variables but the benefit of renaming variables and functions I
>        fail to see.

It makes Emacs easier to learn and use.

[toggle-read-only] (was: replacement of find-file-not-found-hooks)

[Uwe Brauer]

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>>> "EZ" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es>
>> Cc: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>, oub@mat.ucm.es,
>> stefankangas@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 21:34:22 +0200
>> 
>> > Indeed.  We leave these obsolete aliases for several major releases to
>> > give people enough time to pay attention to those obsolescence
>> > warnings, and change their code before the obsolete
>> > variables/functions are actually deleted.
>> 
>> Several comments, 
>> 
>> 1. I «load» via require and I therefore those message are somewhat
>> difficult to notice.

> I understand, but you are encouraged to pay attention to these
> warnings, if you don't want surprises.



>> 2. When I compile I of course see the warnings, but do you suggest
>> that I just byte compile all my files after installing a new
>> Emacs version?

> Yes, I'd definitely recommend that.  I do it myself on my systems,
> FWIW.

Oh my god, that will also end up taking me days. BTW, code, that worked
in emacs 28 now gave an error because toggle-read-only is no longer
known to be defined and here no hint was given what to use

So I boldly 
replaced
-		  (toggle-read-only nil))
by
+		  (read-only-mode nil))

It worked


>> 3. I still find the naming «find-file-not-found-functions»
>> and therefore the call
>> (add-hook 'find-file-not-found-functions
>> 'insert-auto-insert-files 'append)
>> counterintuitive, (now it is too late, but why wasn't this called
>> «find-file-not-found-hook-functions» or something like this).

> Longer names are harder to type and read.

Yeah but maybe easier to find via apropos!

>> 5. I still don't gasp the advantage of renaming functions and
>> variables. I understand the benefit of introducing  new functions and
>> variables but the benefit of renaming variables and functions I
>> fail to see.

> It makes Emacs easier to learn and use.

And it breaks backward compatibility.



-- 
I strongly condemn Hamas heinous despicable pogroms/atrocities on Israel
I strongly condemn Putin's war of aggression against Ukraine.
I support to deliver weapons to Ukraine's military. 
I support the EU and NATO membership of Ukraine. 


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Re: [toggle-read-only] (was: replacement of find-file-not-found-hooks)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es>
> Cc: Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es>, philipk@posteo.net,
> 	stefankangas@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 14:33:35 +0200
> 
> >> 2. When I compile I of course see the warnings, but do you suggest
> >> that I just byte compile all my files after installing a new
> >> Emacs version?
> 
> > Yes, I'd definitely recommend that.  I do it myself on my systems,
> > FWIW.
> 
> Oh my god, that will also end up taking me days.

Why "days"? how many Lisp files do you have that it could take "days"
top byte-compile them?

> BTW, code, that worked in emacs 28 now gave an error because
> toggle-read-only is no longer known to be defined and here no hint
> was given what to use
> 
> So I boldly 
> replaced
> -		  (toggle-read-only nil))
> by
> +		  (read-only-mode nil))
> 
> It worked

toggle-read-only is obsolete since Emacs 24, i.e. for the last 12
years.

> >> 3. I still find the naming «find-file-not-found-functions»
> >> and therefore the call
> >> (add-hook 'find-file-not-found-functions
> >> 'insert-auto-insert-files 'append)
> >> counterintuitive, (now it is too late, but why wasn't this called
> >> «find-file-not-found-hook-functions» or something like this).
> 
> > Longer names are harder to type and read.
> 
> Yeah but maybe easier to find via apropos!

No, not easier.

> >> 5. I still don't gasp the advantage of renaming functions and
> >> variables. I understand the benefit of introducing  new functions and
> >> variables but the benefit of renaming variables and functions I
> >> fail to see.
> 
> > It makes Emacs easier to learn and use.
> 
> And it breaks backward compatibility.

Which is why we do it very sparingly and always after a very long
period of obsolescence.  Many people think we are too conservative.

Re: [toggle-read-only]

[Uwe Brauer]

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> Why "days"? how many Lisp files do you have that it could take "days"
> top byte-compile them?
Days to make everything work, not days to compile, but yes I do have
quite a bit of additional files more than 300 I would say, that includes
old pkg like bbdb-2.35, for which I have written various hacks, that do
not work in more modern bbdb version mostly because of renaming
variables and functions.

> toggle-read-only is obsolete since Emacs 24, i.e. for the last 12
> years.


> No, not easier.


> Which is why we do it very sparingly and always after a very long
> period of obsolescence.  Many people think we are too conservative.

For me this is not too conservative. 

But why, instead of deleting after a while the 
defalias, define-obsolete-variable-alias, defvaralias etc
not moving them into a file compat-obsolete.el or something like this?

-- 
I strongly condemn Hamas heinous despicable pogroms/atrocities on Israel
I strongly condemn Putin's war of aggression against Ukraine.
I support to deliver weapons to Ukraine's military. 
I support the EU and NATO membership of Ukraine. 


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Re: [toggle-read-only]

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es>
> Cc: Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es>, philipk@posteo.net,
> 	stefankangas@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 17:50:00 +0200
> 
> > Why "days"? how many Lisp files do you have that it could take "days"
> > top byte-compile them?
> Days to make everything work, not days to compile

If they work without byte-compiling, they will also work the same when
byte-compiled, I think.

> but yes I do have
> quite a bit of additional files more than 300 I would say, that includes
> old pkg like bbdb-2.35, for which I have written various hacks, that do
> not work in more modern bbdb version mostly because of renaming
> variables and functions.

The Emacs source tree has more than 2300 Lisp files, and they can all
be compiled in under 5 minutes.  That's a far cry from "days".

In any case, feel free not to recompile your files when you upgrade
Emacs, and instead wait with fixing till things break.  But then
please don't come back complaining that something that was obsolete
for the past 15 years suddenly doesn't work, because we gave you 15
years to adapt, and you have chosen to ignore that.

> But why, instead of deleting after a while the 
> defalias, define-obsolete-variable-alias, defvaralias etc
> not moving them into a file compat-obsolete.el or something like this?

Because it's an extra maintenance burden, and a serious one at that.

Re: replacement of find-file-not-found-hooks

[Björn Bidar]

Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> writes:

> I wished there was compatibility file, in which old for some reason
> obsolete variables, functions etc would go so that the user you upgrade
> more swiftly.

There is a package that goes the other way around by providing
compatibility features that allow packages to update newer feature of
new Emacs version faster without breaking old packages and thous make
them move on faster.

https://github.com/emacs-compat/compat