From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Lisp files that load cl-lib in problematical ways Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 23:20:02 -0400 Message-ID: References: <83ttqnm4ti.fsf@gnu.org> <831qdlpoye.fsf@gnu.org> <83sf5xhnym.fsf@gnu.org> <871qdhk49w.fsf@dataswamp.org> <25914.49745.111873.734458@orion.rgrjr.com> Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="28109"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: incal@dataswamp.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Bob Rogers Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Oct 28 05:21:12 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qwZst-00076A-EF for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 05:21:11 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qwZrp-0003M1-43; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 23:20:05 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qwZrn-0003LS-GN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 23:20:03 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qwZrm-0007no-E9; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 23:20:02 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=aNhKGO8ulIzxu+d7N9vcLjQiwUk7OyKeYXSuOF1jWNU=; b=ZraJyCZ2vZND iQGtrwPpJQzuMS4S8/0J/ILqFFQwOg8GV7Li9PGI2Wac1yrAJzSWIBO0bmVAm065EcNNe02Lv++7Q ti7axw3m96cH2CUDSPQu9d0R/u6e1VC37QIwR58pMShfMNO5VHfp3EtX8UDjMbfOtTN6hkkKjn4Rb OJqBbkwdcipGn0rz+5jVK3+wCDp+qhnaRBsQuWYHhCZOocL5F2JuNNq3og1y9O2FoaNpDZnWd7DIG 6rIjvN5Br0GiUKfeB4Unn01QOgn6rjkmCD+FtoeSvnbyk/K7o1AXdcOSeQvEti3OjVrQRHASHuR70 cXPhxmCueUVraezPm5VLtA==; Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qwZrm-00013X-1y; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 23:20:02 -0400 In-Reply-To: <25914.49745.111873.734458@orion.rgrjr.com> (message from Bob Rogers on Thu, 26 Oct 2023 12:47:29 -0700) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:311947 Archived-At: [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > This complexity and the resulting complications, I believe, are what > Richard was trying to avoid when he designed Emacs Lisp to be a simpler > dialect of Lisp, and why he sees cl-lib.el as a trojan horse that is > changing Emacs Lisp. I think you've put your finger on it. I see nothing wrong with having an optional extension which implements (more or less) Common Lisp in Emacs Lisp. That's what I thought we had done. However, I object to incorporating (more or less) Common Lisp an essential part of Emacs Lisp. And it looks like we've been drifting into that. There is no sharp line between the one and the other, and no simple test to determine which of those two our current situation actually is. Rather, there is a spectrum that runs from "CL support is available but you can ignore it" to "the CL constructs are an essential and unavoidable part of Emacs Lisp." The specific practical questions I've asked are efforts to evaluate where we are now along that spectrum. Of course, the answer to that isn't precise either. But I was very surprised to learn how far Emacs has gone towards the latter end. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)