From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Lisp files that load cl-lib in problematical ways Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 22:27:54 -0400 Message-ID: References: <87il8betof.fsf@dataswamp.org> <83fs3dgxv8.fsf@gnu.org> <835y38qvlg.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcx6eci.fsf@dataswamp.org> <83ttqnm4ti.fsf@gnu.org> <831qdlpoye.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="32031"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: eliz@gnu.org, acm@muc.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Kangas Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Oct 26 04:28:35 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qvq6t-00083u-Ba for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 04:28:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvq6L-000143-4Q; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 22:28:01 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvq6J-0000ml-3j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 22:27:59 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvq6G-0008K8-Vj; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 22:27:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=O5Qzjez2i0xQd+OKZ8A6JD1vu0jLG4ARFqFlxmGog10=; b=SZXI0ZQkiMVp DU1zmFtzunFRsNQW007AAFmT/xl5BnXbJEg/sTa9AXgl8gzQYQjLpAwmd2wfC4vgjYaMbBnl5W55L 6xVs5iiM2IYGjNkp2ApSgkU4n3QTo5OA1LfwbONs+2L9m1acSWgguqq8vBlP2q9uaYC3wf86XsZex 21vWTDUqRYMYHcNlwG3cDDeHauAErVq4U/Bkvb8HLhu7VFM/Kugpepa7s12LPxR1xIL9t6jk5wHfs RB8VpEYJRf7cQiUgiyP3Xw6ln+QtsKq/TCVq4/iIQoqsQttt2jEkdx8QnyZo5/oRT8V2fCfGmd92J S7qFDBCDk/gDqxI8jNAowg==; Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvq6E-0003iR-OB; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 22:27:54 -0400 In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Wed, 25 Oct 2023 00:57:29 -0700) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:311876 Archived-At: [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > A CL fan might say the latter is simpler, but for me, who isn't sure > > just how to use cl-pushnew, the former seems conceptually simpler. > The `cl-pushnew' docstring explains: > Add X to the list stored in PLACE unless X is already in the list. Yes, it does -- but what I said is valid nonetheless. We're talking about the complexity of different ways of writing code. A reference to a function that you don't know has a kind of complexity. The fact that you can look up that function doesn't eliminate that complexity. > The only difference I see is that new version is harder to read, and > more prone to bugs (as you have to write the same code twice). Do you frequently use the cl- facilities such as `cl-pushnew'? If so, that might explain why you didn't _see_ the extra complexity that comes from calling `cl-pushnew'. That extra complexity exists for people who don't habitually use cl facilities, and not for those who do habitually use them. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)