From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Org mode and Emacs Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 20:37:48 -0400 Message-ID: References: <83msyemjx8.fsf@gnu.org> <871qfpoij6.fsf@gnu.org> <87fs45ivyo.fsf@localhost> <87h6okga15.fsf@localhost> <87cyz61cbp.fsf@localhost> <87v8cuqtkr.fsf@localhost> <87sf7rsfpd.fsf@localhost> <8334zr32ih.fsf@gnu.org> <87edjbsc8k.fsf@localhost> <83r0nb1mb1.fsf@gnu.org> <871qfbsaju.fsf@localhost> <83pm2v1fyw.fsf@gnu.org> <87y1hjqnzq.fsf@localhost> Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="39164"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: eliz@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Ihor Radchenko Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 09 02:38:29 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qelzW-0009ni-2a for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 09 Sep 2023 02:38:26 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qelyw-0008Rh-Rc; Fri, 08 Sep 2023 20:37:50 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qelyv-0008Pa-FU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 08 Sep 2023 20:37:49 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qelyv-0006Gc-3K; Fri, 08 Sep 2023 20:37:49 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=iRA8mi5MK85t4KP26+//j1cHa1w/PTSSeoemJw5W8S0=; b=IWc+fsnOQQdr Wp/tMWmAcBt4J7Zaby1ycUfk1Md8R49eRBXqAHLpeTLqv6JfBiEebtjqctCX/KOHHUa5azhHKdYIk ZwwhTHVQB0LgOX8Aj2lQj4Yth1gM2Z3wgSCd5ThJMhssvO3C9t8GMHjYlzPmDfhhb06NIC+hfEUbw IobO53HOL3PbY/qrIEJI9rafB9IXddFRZddOAwVS2O9Br+gxIBTqdlgKK8zsiNP7KTfhoXdswPKwm IT4ugLamXwEDPIHF+Im+F0VFK0W+C6hLkTg680FdlZLj6R5P4H2RbkpaSPxuGOxRmeb/62vQKInuM U/dMQkC/waqOuQh2hWC9hw==; Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qelyu-0003Wj-Qb; Fri, 08 Sep 2023 20:37:48 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87y1hjqnzq.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Wed, 06 Sep 2023 16:12:57 +0000) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:310374 Archived-At: [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I understand. However, new features are added to Texinfo for a reason. That is correct. We added each of these features to Texinfo because some GNU manual needed it. Indeed, the simple way to find out all the features GNU manuals need is to look at the Texinfo manual and see what they required us to support. We're comsidering the idea of making Org format adequate for GNU mamuals. Currently it can't express the distinctions that are needed in order to produce the proper output for each of the output formats. If we want to achieve that, we come to this question: * What specific extension syntax would we use for Org equivalents of the Texinfo constructs that Org currently cannot express> > The way I see Org markup extension would make it easy to users add new > custom markup, as needed. Then, no frequent changes to the base markup > will be necessary to accommodate for less common use cases. I see a possible ambiguity and point of confusion. When you say, "extension", do you mean "a package that gets loaded on top of ordinary Org mode"? That's what I thought it meant. Implementing some of the Texinfo constructs in such a package, perhaps called org-texinfo, is an implementation detail as far as I'm concerned. But now I think maybe you mean something else -- that you propose to add some sort of limited macro definition facility and have the missing Texinfo constructs be defined using that. Is that it? To be adequate for this job, the macro definition facility needs to be more powerful than they usually are. The expansion of one construct needs to depend on the output format being generated, and sometimes the expansion of construct A depends on whether it is inside construct B. If the facility can do that, I think it will suffice for nearly all of the missing Texinfo constructs. If you think of this as a method to simplify part of the implementation of Texinfo in Org, it may work. But be prepared for exeptions, constructs that need special handling! If you think of this as a way to keep Org itself free of Texinfo impurities, it won't work. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)