From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [NonGNU ELPA] New package: llm Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 21:27:17 -0400 Message-ID: References: <87v8d0iqa5.fsf@posteo.net> <87cyz3vaws.fsf@localhost> Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="40703"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: jporterbugs@gmail.com, ahyatt@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Ihor Radchenko Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 04 03:28:09 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qcyNt-000AKK-Or for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 04 Sep 2023 03:28:09 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qcyN6-0005VL-Le; Sun, 03 Sep 2023 21:27:20 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qcyN5-0005U1-35 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 03 Sep 2023 21:27:19 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qcyN4-0002TG-H6; Sun, 03 Sep 2023 21:27:18 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=cwubl9/s8atOLi87Ls/5LEe9zYoBL4+illi93aCrHHw=; b=A5S263Dg88vE 9KePmppg9kDHfzywVL4XuNSZmAjjxWUy0eUpnMx8TnSsMJOVgv0sgXcRVSRh6qRYK0Li9ff2qNQZf JWod+a3DK0Qq8riYFJCa5cFSuspXHb9FVO1Hyc5HW1UiihRVvYEeVCQvIuhf99fDS1r7IqEwhVbmD 4SjGRO8w1Rb9GtFxaZGDvD7ba1Q91nXqU3Dli1bqc1d3pKiOqJiogNYCWuzr8ibBKdTt6FEr3jWiF S9TfGCkw3dFzEZYH52BnLqNUxYI+yUUNc030/fjNCf8cc/ERQH8JKOI549w2gi912BgK+M22mOAej YrsjwptlYvVCfYnwPSv1tw==; Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qcyN3-0001bU-OH; Sun, 03 Sep 2023 21:27:17 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87cyz3vaws.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Thu, 31 Aug 2023 09:06:11 +0000) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:310033 Archived-At: [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > As for LLMs that run on servers, they are a different issue entirely. > > They are all SaaSS (Service as a Software Substitute), and SaaSS is > > always unjust. > > > > See https://gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html > > for explanation. > I do not fully agree here. A number of more powerful LLMs have very > limiting hardware requirements. For example, some LLMs require 64+Gbs of > RAM to run: That is true, and it is unfortunate. There may be no practical way to run a certain model except for SaaSS. That does not alter the injustice of SaaSS. So we should not silence our criticism of SaaSS in those cases, If a user decides to run that model as SaaSS, given this situation, that is per responsibility. We will not try to prevent per from doing so, But we should inform per of the injustice so perse can make that decision aware of the injustice. This is very important. > In such scenario, the base assumption you make in > https://gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html may no > longer hold for most users: > "Suppose that any software tasks you might need for the job are > implemented in free software, and you have copies, and you have whatever > data you might need, as well as computers of whatever speed, > functionality and capacity might be required." > Thus, for many users (owning less powerful computers) LLMs as a service > are going to be SaaS, not SaaSS. (Given that the SaaS LLM has free > licence and users who choose to buy the necessary hardware retain their > freedom to run the same LLM on their hardware.) I think that is a misunderstanding. The text quoted from the page says you have whatever data you might need, as well as computers of whatever speed, functionality and capacity might be required. Whether that is feasible for usual usersion in some real case is not part of the question. This question is part of the thought experiment. This is meant to clarify the concept of "SaaSS". It is not part of the DEFINITION of SaaSS. It is not intended to say that any service that needs so much resources that you could not run it yourself _is not_ SaaSS. I don't think that practical details about what other choices are feasible for a user affect whether use of a certain service is SaaSS. In principle, those should be independent questions. I will take a look at clarifying that page. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)