From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Builder, a build system integration for Emacs Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 18:28:43 -0400 Message-ID: References: <95980ffc-86e7-ad54-4a20-539d8c6ea5d0@mailo.com> <3f68f4bc-d426-0bcc-1329-674c12b29386@mailo.com> <76e12f7c-335f-476b-ffb3-fd8e8e4ab5d0@mailo.com> <87pm6rx4ea.fsf@yahoo.com> <87wn0ytefw.fsf@gmail.com> <83h6s0n95y.fsf@gnu.org> <83edn4myz4.fsf@gnu.org> <83a5xsmuc0.fsf@gnu.org> <3a315ddd3a25a56c8d6a@heytings.org> <871qiyotwe.fsf@yahoo.com> <84fefa6fb3a04d2b2a54@heytings.org> Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="25913"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Gregory Heytings Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Jun 01 00:29:48 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1q4UKC-0006ZB-QN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2023 00:29:48 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1q4UJC-0005sO-8M; Wed, 31 May 2023 18:28:46 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1q4UJB-0005sE-9m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 31 May 2023 18:28:45 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1q4UJA-0003bW-QX; Wed, 31 May 2023 18:28:44 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=GcfW39Zeg9ULWhJeg+FZGUAowHFCFx85StB907g2vVU=; b=aDuAvbfyG0Lk nezb1IoUewgm2N4xCIBPfclB4UZ1mnAFPJDw9x2kKVqhd574AaPY3uDBkGXJQUsiOR0g3WRjqd1oC aPRl1mI7CRFY4z1EP6Y/3NiSlw8t6GY0N8Aa+/FWYnc8X8MAbQ0vOndGn84bNiA61oNyv3ZvyVCnA xfcOKBuItDUurNHfTu892PyHhO2IDT18bQQG87jsiRPdvDXDsiXndpCOHI+IIcerMPsz6FkE00N/m mqVZmL3FNOdpcd1ZIHe3QV7F4W+NE9we/2UeTWu/4Jn71oGaihvyXvFIdZEhsg1oZRIYGlRHia4WS 4DdK3L57P5nz1KjgQ+clwA==; Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1q4UJ9-00023F-51; Wed, 31 May 2023 18:28:43 -0400 In-Reply-To: <84fefa6fb3a04d2b2a54@heytings.org> (message from Gregory Heytings on Tue, 30 May 2023 15:08:44 +0000) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:306468 Archived-At: [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Richard is asking for facts, I appreciate the factual information you're giving me. your categorical judgements are out of > place here. Maybe, but maybe not. The reason these facts are important is for figuring out what the GNU criteria for a free distro imply about a distro containing Cargo. The criteria are stated in https://gnu.org/distros/free-system-distribution-guidelines.html. Maybe Po Lu is familiar with these criteria and is anticipating our conclusions. > Typing "cargo install cargo-deny" is all you need to install it. To qualify as a free distro, the distro should even invite the user to link the user's programs with nonfree software. It must not invite the user ti set a flag to permit that. It must not offer to include nonfree software virtually in the installation. Of course, given free software the users can always change it and override anything. A free system cannot stop you from making any change you choose to make. If you want to install some nonfree packages and put them into the libraries to use by default, you can. But the free distro should not offer a shorthand way to do that. So, what can we conclude about cargo-deny? First, what the precise default behavior of cargo-deny? Is its default action to reject anything listed on crates.io with a nonfree license? If so, there might be an error in crates.io and some nonfree package might be listed as free. We need to have a way to override that listing. Second, installation of cargo-deny should be automatic. It's not good enough to tell users, "Don't forget to install cargo-deny so that your system doesn't virtually contain nonfree Rust libraries!" Third, I am not sure whether just installing cargo-deny is robust enough as a way to exclude nonfree packages from our distro. Installing (in a virtual sense) all the nonfree Rust packages should not be so easy as deleting one file. Maybe we should rename Cargo to Embargo and patch it so that it always runs cargo-deny. We could make a symlink from `cargo' to `embargo' so that scripts don't break. But we might develop free replacements for some of those nonfree libraries. We would want our version of Cargo to see them and use them rather than the nonfree ones in crates.io. We might want to make asite free-crates.io which contains only the free packages and make Cargo use that instead. free-crates.io could implement a virtual copy, so that after the list of its own packages (which will all be free), it would look in crates.io and use the free packags found there. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)