From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: No to CL packages Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2022 17:59:32 -0400 Message-ID: References: <87k04t6vv3.fsf@gmail.com> Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="24798"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: relekarpayas@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Gerd =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=C3=B6llmann?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Oct 28 23:59:42 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ooXOA-0006Jy-Eh for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 28 Oct 2022 23:59:42 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ooXO3-0006Ph-5I; Fri, 28 Oct 2022 17:59:35 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ooXO1-0006PX-Pr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 28 Oct 2022 17:59:33 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ooXO1-0002PW-IX; Fri, 28 Oct 2022 17:59:33 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=7o/v7UxgUAPNkoy1cWwPGXlg1BEJk5OarebhqMqKRKo=; b=JW0rwbDgaBDb nKGlsS25Y2Gqq/nC12HCBYlhxIZ1nJahPTUNGgsIymWqun275b/pkzOklrs0HBjrVC3rx0O583YI/ s0cxlICmaR+u14Df4HfmaCxlsrkW6l4wmgLTWKD8YRtvDGl1pmB2w/hpuq5AmIaJKxmuFo23WFy7x p41gIFPQM6Tz5/JU5fQKyJi/XMLsvfHv+wZu/0PZrX6ABs7cKzAMIOOtHc/Y9lQspuDMLZMKgmba3 gYeJp643U2igdnYektYKzimVcalnDpdq0ag2XbJkNMHaDIFWVw86YIa2xZfKHCfIP1ISQBrCXugih 7RTZj0n4zFc8vsb9yLow/Q==; Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ooXO0-0007hq-AR; Fri, 28 Oct 2022 17:59:32 -0400 In-Reply-To: (message from Gerd =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=C3=B6llmann?= on Mon, 24 Oct 2022 06:40:08 +0200) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:298703 Archived-At: [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I see no need to invent yet another package system. We already have it, not quite finished. > > With that, we will be able to implement packages that work reliably > > and without ambiguities. > You mention reliability and ambiguity. What do you mean, in a concrete > example? I can't write an example of Common Liso packages -- it was 40 years ago that I implemented them for the Lisp Machine. But I recall what the unreliability was. With CL packages, the reader searched a list of packages (specified by the current package) for a symbol with the name just read. This means that the unexpected presence of a symbol with that name, in an early package in the list, could alter the meaning. If the list includes packages foo abd bar, and you write `my-hack' expecting the symbol to be found in bar, but unexpectedly foo contains a symbol named my-hack, you will get that one. > In case you're thinking in terms of the pre-CL package system that some > Lisp machines had in the 80s, please read chapter 11 of "Common Lisp the > Language 2nd edition" by Guy Steele. CL's package system is not like > the older one. I implemented packages according to the CL specifications. Perhaps the specifications for packages have been changed since then. I'm willing to look at that. Being hundreds of messages backlogged from the past 10 days, I'd rather not try to download the whole CL specs and search through them. Would you please email me that specific chapter? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)