Let's announce each new package added to GNU ELPA or NonGNU ELPA

Let's announce each new package added to GNU ELPA or NonGNU ELPA

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

I think it would be wise and helpful to announce each new package
added for the first time to GNU ELPA or NonGNU ELPA.  These
hand-written announcements would contain a brief paragraph that
summarizes what the package does.  (This text could be stored in the
repo so people could look at it later.)

The natural place to post these announcements is on info-gnu-emacs.
However, if the rate of new packages in NonGNU ELPA would lead to too
many messages for that list, we could announce the NonGNU ELPA
packages on some other list.

Each package would be announced this way only once.  Each _new
version_ of a package is announced automatically on gnu-emacs-sources;
for new versions, that is enough.  But those automatic announcements
don't say whether the package is new.

What do people think?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Let's announce each new package added to GNU ELPA or NonGNU ELPA

[Tim Cross]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
> I think it would be wise and helpful to announce each new package
> added for the first time to GNU ELPA or NonGNU ELPA.  These
> hand-written announcements would contain a brief paragraph that
> summarizes what the package does.  (This text could be stored in the
> repo so people could look at it later.)
>
> The natural place to post these announcements is on info-gnu-emacs.
> However, if the rate of new packages in NonGNU ELPA would lead to too
> many messages for that list, we could announce the NonGNU ELPA
> packages on some other list.
>
> Each package would be announced this way only once.  Each _new
> version_ of a package is announced automatically on gnu-emacs-sources;
> for new versions, that is enough.  But those automatic announcements
> don't say whether the package is new.
>
> What do people think?

Ignoring the question of who will generate these announcements, I think
a regular (weekly, fortnightly, monthly, whatever - monthly probably
sufficient) summary type message which contains new packages since the
last summary would be better than multiple messages containing details
of only one package at a time.

Re: Let's announce each new package added to GNU ELPA or NonGNU ELPA

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I think
  > a regular (weekly, fortnightly, monthly, whatever - monthly probably
  > sufficient) summary type message which contains new packages since the
  > last summary would be better than multiple messages containing details
  > of only one package at a time.

I have to disagree.  Announcing each separately would help/encourage
people to look at each one and think about it for a few seconds --
"Would this be useful for me?"

By contrast, announcing several packages together would help/encourage
people not to look at all of them.  Many would only notice the first
one.  The only benefit would be to reduce the total number of
messages.

How much is that benefit?  With some data, we could see.

Can anyone find the last 10 packages added to GNU ELPA,
and the date each one was added?


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Let's announce each new package added to GNU ELPA or NonGNU ELPA

[Philip Kaludercic]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
> I think it would be wise and helpful to announce each new package
> added for the first time to GNU ELPA or NonGNU ELPA.  These
> hand-written announcements would contain a brief paragraph that
> summarizes what the package does.  (This text could be stored in the
> repo so people could look at it later.)

Are you thinking about an automated system, or should the people that
add the package to elpa.git/nongnu.git send a separate message?

> The natural place to post these announcements is on info-gnu-emacs.
> However, if the rate of new packages in NonGNU ELPA would lead to too
> many messages for that list, we could announce the NonGNU ELPA
> packages on some other list.

Does it have to be immediate, or could a weekly-summary (something like
"new packages and releases") also do it?

> Each package would be announced this way only once.  Each _new
> version_ of a package is announced automatically on gnu-emacs-sources;
> for new versions, that is enough.  But those automatic announcements
> don't say whether the package is new.
>
> What do people think?

I don't know if it is necessary, whenever a package gets added to an
archive, it is marked as "new" in the package list.  Given a decent
commentary section (something I often mention to package maintainers),
you also get a good overview of what the package does.

-- 
	Philip Kaludercic

Re: Let's announce each new package added to GNU ELPA or NonGNU ELPA

[Michael Albinus]

Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> writes:

>> What do people think?
>
> I don't know if it is necessary, whenever a package gets added to an
> archive, it is marked as "new" in the package list.  Given a decent
> commentary section (something I often mention to package maintainers),
> you also get a good overview of what the package does.

And there are the weekly Emacs News by Sacha Chua, which summarize also
the new packages of the week.

Best regards, Michael.

Re: Let's announce each new package added to GNU ELPA or NonGNU ELPA

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > And there are the weekly Emacs News by Sacha Chua, which summarize also
  > the new packages of the week.

Would you please send me a copy of one?  I'd like to see
an example of how it presents the new packages -- and what
other things it contains.



-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

RE: [External] : Re: Let's announce each new package added to GNU ELPA or NonGNU ELPA

[Drew Adams]

> > And there are the weekly Emacs News by Sacha Chua, which summarize also
> > the new packages of the week.
> 
> Would you please send me a copy of one?  I'd like to see
> an example of how it presents the new packages -- and what
> other things it contains.

Sacha sends them to emacs-tangents@gnu.org, typically on Sunday or Monday.

Re: [External] : Re: Let's announce each new package added to GNU ELPA or NonGNU ELPA

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > > And there are the weekly Emacs News by Sacha Chua, which summarize also
  > > > the new packages of the week.
  > > 
  > > Would you please send me a copy of one?  I'd like to see
  > > an example of how it presents the new packages -- and what
  > > other things it contains.

  > Sacha sends them to emacs-tangents@gnu.org, typically on Sunday or Monday.

I'm not on emacs-tangents, and putting myself on it would be a hassle.
Then I'd have another hassle to take myself off again.

Would someone please send me a copy of her latest mailing?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: [External] : Re: Let's announce each new package added to GNU ELPA or NonGNU ELPA

[Corwin Brust]

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On Sun, Feb 13, 2022, 22:16 Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:

>
> Would someone please send me a copy of her latest mailing?
>

OK. I did.

>

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Re: Let's announce each new package added to GNU ELPA or NonGNU ELPA

[Sacha Chua]

Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de> writes:

Hello, all!

>> I don't know if it is necessary, whenever a package gets added to an
>> archive, it is marked as "new" in the package list.  Given a decent
>> commentary section (something I often mention to package maintainers),
>> you also get a good overview of what the package does.
> And there are the weekly Emacs News by Sacha Chua, which summarize also
> the new packages of the week.

I can add archive source to the package lines, like this:

- New packages:
  - helm-twitch: Navigate Twitch.tv via `helm' (MELPA)
  - org-journal-tags: Tagging and querying system of org-journal (MELPA)
  - org-remark: Highlight & annotate any text files (GNU ELPA)
  - paimon: A major mode for Splunk (MELPA)
  - simplicity-theme: A minimalist dark theme (MELPA)

The caps feel a little visually cluttered, though.

Here's the 2022-02-14 edition in the emacs-tangents web archive:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-tangents/2022-02/msg00001.html

When I get some focused time, I might be able to get the code to notice
when something has been newly listed in an archive even though it's
already been listed in a different archive, as might be the case for
MELPA packages that get listed on GNU ELPA or NonGNU ELPA. Maybe
something like

  - some-package: description goes here (newly listed on GNU ELPA, also
    on MELPA)

although maybe that's a bit long?

A number of people have mentioned noticing packages from this list
before, so some people do read it. An RSS or ATOM feed of new packages
and a feed of updated packages would probably be even more handy, or
maybe having created/modified dates baked into the package contents list
or a separate file. At the moment, I compare the package archive
contents with a datestamped list I store in a file, which is very
hackish.

Sacha

Re: Let's announce each new package added to GNU ELPA or NonGNU ELPA

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > I think it would be wise and helpful to announce each new package
  > > added for the first time to GNU ELPA or NonGNU ELPA.  These
  > > hand-written announcements would contain a brief paragraph that
  > > summarizes what the package does.  (This text could be stored in the
  > > repo so people could look at it later.)

  > Are you thinking about an automated system, or should the people that
  > add the package to elpa.git/nongnu.git send a separate message?

I was presuming it would have to be manual, but if there is a way to make it
automatic, that would be more convenient.

  > Does it have to be immediate, or could a weekly-summary (something like
  > "new packages and releases") also do it?

I think it will be more effective if each package gets a separate message.
If you put two or three packages in one message, people's eyes may glaze over.



-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Let's announce each new package added to GNU ELPA or NonGNU ELPA

[Philip Kaludercic]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>   > Does it have to be immediate, or could a weekly-summary (something like
>   > "new packages and releases") also do it?
>
> I think it will be more effective if each package gets a separate message.
> If you put two or three packages in one message, people's eyes may glaze over.

The same argument can be made for the opposite approach.  If there are
too many "New package" or "Package updated" messages, I am particularly
inclined to read ever one of them in detail.  The only value of separate
messages in my eyes would be that you could respond to them directly,
but that would create too much traffic, and would probably require a
separate mailing list.

I guess the real question remains who the "target audience" of these
messages would be.  As Michael said, Sasha Chua's weekly update already
mentions new packages (though not package updates).

-- 
	Philip Kaludercic

Re: Let's announce each new package added to GNU ELPA or NonGNU ELPA

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>
> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 09:11:00 +0000
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >   > Does it have to be immediate, or could a weekly-summary (something like
> >   > "new packages and releases") also do it?
> >
> > I think it will be more effective if each package gets a separate message.
> > If you put two or three packages in one message, people's eyes may glaze over.
> 
> The same argument can be made for the opposite approach.  If there are
> too many "New package" or "Package updated" messages, I am particularly
> inclined to read ever one of them in detail.  The only value of separate
> messages in my eyes would be that you could respond to them directly,
> but that would create too much traffic, and would probably require a
> separate mailing list.

If you are going to post these messages to one of the existing mailing
list, then people who want to read the list as a digest already setup
that in their list preferences (and can modify them if these
announcements somehow are a game-changer for them).

IOW, don't worry about providing a digest: it is already provided.

Re: Let's announce each new package added to GNU ELPA or NonGNU ELPA

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > I think it would be wise and helpful to announce each new package
  > > added for the first time to GNU ELPA or NonGNU ELPA.  These
  > > hand-written announcements would contain a brief paragraph that
  > > summarizes what the package does.  (This text could be stored in the
  > > repo so people could look at it later.)

  > Are you thinking about an automated system, or should the people that
  > add the package to elpa.git/nongnu.git send a separate message?

If the scripts could tell the difference between a newly added package
and a new version, it could be good to make the script detect this
and change the automatic announcement accordingly.

BUT the new-package announcement should NOT be a minor variation on
the update announcement.  On the contrary, we should make the two look
quite different, to make sure readers notice new packages.

Also, it would be desirable for new package announcements
to give more info about what the package does.
(The one or two lines now included in the update announcements
are good, for the update announcements.  I wouldn't want to change that.)

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Let's announce each new package added to GNU ELPA or NonGNU ELPA

[Stefan Monnier]

> If the scripts could tell the difference between a newly added package
> and a new version, it could be good to make the script detect this
> and change the automatic announcement accordingly.

It's a small matter of coding, yes.


        Stefan