From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: devil's advocate Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2021 23:15:37 -0500 Message-ID: References: <87tufmjyai.fsf@gnus.org> <87lf0nr2b4.fsf@gnus.org> <87czlzjfhs.fsf@logand.com> <87pmpznmw4.fsf@gnus.org> <87a6h3jcfm.fsf@logand.com> <83lf0nj9w4.fsf@gnu.org> <8735mvj5u0.fsf@logand.com> <83a6gycs56.fsf@gnu.org> <835yrj2tqj.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="37029"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: larsi@gnus.org, tom@logand.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 22 05:16:49 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mzt3Z-0009TW-40 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 05:16:49 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60596 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mzt3X-0008R3-Lh for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 21 Dec 2021 23:16:47 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:34808) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mzt2Q-0006zz-Q1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Dec 2021 23:15:38 -0500 Original-Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=51820 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mzt2P-0004US-A9; Tue, 21 Dec 2021 23:15:37 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=eVnpFrqioa7VAL2oKjEUezf58zf/ZqCaIRa5Iaw9Wis=; b=q5X3Uei8Vtpo Yub7NuzBf+scLhTlKnUtYRWfoTphdE68FIO8kYuUA38H4bS+ob3Sr8JNQqRXfmzrvG5jCFptyy/v0 1XSJVdBwScHwxX287B/nXJmQDIFfVVvUtDAo3FZNcUgI4GuJ0cbinJ6cCjTO84nvsefs9vN2Xw7rR AFMEmjwfUiGXiNvF0PaoLNB7Eee4gCOdP/YPeZ+NbruN3FtLOu/HYcwjOIEzPU9IwSy1z1LcJyIW1 H9Xm+uwpPhjtGhyCq0aDwAHp4FqX0wEjedJL/6W30jF23p1WUYgUnln87PpbGPjNHsoR1OGbZUIOt UNMYC+mFqRe+9p1lCiEzrw==; Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mzt2P-0004Rx-GF; Tue, 21 Dec 2021 23:15:37 -0500 In-Reply-To: <835yrj2tqj.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Mon, 20 Dec 2021 17:15:00 +0200) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:282669 Archived-At: [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > I have never seen this in use. Is the "red team" charged to look only > > for valid and pertinent arguments for changing the plan? Or is it > > supposed to treat the question as a real fight, trying to defeat the > > plan by hook or by crook > They need to play the adversary, and do it well. Whether that > includes "by hook or by crook" depends on the domain; for example, in > Cyber warfare it's entirely expected. I think you have changed the subject subtly, from design to security, and extended the issue of devils advocates in an incorrect way. If pentesters find a security flaw, and they demonstrate it, that is a real criticism, not a fake one. The equivalent of devils advocates in pentesting, if such a thing is possible, would be people who smear you about presumed security weaknesses without bothering to find them. Let's move this to emacs-tangents. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)