From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: ams@gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: A new user perspective about "Changes for emacs 28" Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 15:01:44 -0400 Message-ID: References: <1ca462fa-0f9e-3c18-6386-f43f49388b2f@gmail.com> <20200907180812.5tfylspp7i6vl4o3@Ergus> <94fda087-a61b-356d-4bb4-791907593246@yandex.ru> <24302cf8-5ac8-4abd-83ce-3e33c51a8beb@default> <83k0x4mjsv.fsf@gnu.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="30030"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: spacibba@aol.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, nicola.manca85@gmail.com, dgutov@yandex.ru, eliz@gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 09 21:06:09 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kG5Q0-0007hk-Si for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 21:06:08 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33928 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kG5Pz-0002wV-SH for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 15:06:07 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33152) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kG5Ln-0001rP-EF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 15:01:47 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:41986) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kG5Lm-0001jz-RR; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 15:01:46 -0400 Original-Received: from ams by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1kG5Lk-0003rY-JJ; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 15:01:44 -0400 In-reply-to: (message from Richard Stallman on Tue, 08 Sep 2020 23:44:45 -0400) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254921 Archived-At: > I would find it entierly unusable (I've tried it several times) and I > know several people who use Emacs would find the same, so I do not > find it at all an exaggeration. Could you present some specific scenarios in which it works badly for you? That would enable us to go deeper than "I love it" / "I hate it." Sure, here is very simple example on how unintuitive the mode is from the point of a Emacs user. Installed undo-tree-mode, and enabled it. In an empty buffer I write, foo bar baz And issue C-x C-u -- the first thing it does is take over half the screen and switches the buffer to a "undo tree visualizer" -- I just want to undo whatever I did. I try doing C-x C-u again -- that doesn't work, since the undo-tree-visualizer mode doesn't support that binding. Am I supposed to move up and down to replace the text in this new buffer? Seems so; fair enough -- but that will make recording macros that change text using undo very peculiar. At this point, I disabled it out of frustration. Now how you would go about explainin this mode to a new Emacs user is beyond me; since it involves several concepts that a beginner would not have become used to to -- just the notion that doing undo will make all kind of windows pop up is quite strange.