From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: ams@gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2020 15:32:02 -0400 Message-ID: References: <20200906133719.cu6yaldvenxubcqq.ref@Ergus> <20200906133719.cu6yaldvenxubcqq@Ergus> <83lfhnnew7.fsf@gnu.org> <20200906163418.3p2wuygb4osm76wa@Ergus> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="34091"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: eliz@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Ergus Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 06 21:32:31 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kF0Ot-0008ni-Gm for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 21:32:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37158 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kF0Os-00037j-JV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 15:32:30 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38694) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kF0OR-0002hW-8h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 15:32:03 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:55023) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kF0OQ-0001Zl-Vq; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 15:32:02 -0400 Original-Received: from ams by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1kF0OQ-00068P-8s; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 15:32:02 -0400 In-reply-to: <20200906163418.3p2wuygb4osm76wa@Ergus> (message from Ergus on Sun, 6 Sep 2020 18:34:18 +0200) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254584 Archived-At: Sorry but I can't understand why "old" users, that can write lisp lines easily to their configs, can't understand that for new users (and younger ones) those lines sometimes takes hours or days (mainly because they don't know what/where/how to look for, and lisp is not so popular or familiar these days). And that the first impression when they open emacs is like going back to 1998. I think you need to make a stronger case as to why a user would spend, from day one, several hours or days to configure Emacs to be able to use it -- such an story would be very interesting to read to learn and understand what could be improved. The list you suggested would barley have any impact on the experience of new users, but would have a large impact on people who have been using emacs for a long time. We can turn the argument around as well, as users become more experienced they will add more of the "experienced" defaults to their configuration files -- making it a general waste of time trying to find those good defaults for experienced users, having to possibly reinvent the wheel over and over again. What new users will want is more or less from my experience the same as what experienced users expect to see, to open and edit files, have navigation or auto-popup-completion -- both which I think would be nice to see as standard for common modes (not just programming, and working as well as emacs-lisp-mode and eldoc-mode). They will probobly want to have some sort of WYSIWYG feature for writting notes.