From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Richard Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Imports / inclusion of s.el into Emacs Date: Thu, 07 May 2020 22:49:23 -0400 Message-ID: References: <0c88192c-3c33-46ed-95cb-b4c6928016e3@default> Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="42173"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: rms@gnu.org, stefan@marxist.se, emacs-devel@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, pcr910303@icloud.com, dgutov@yandex.ru, eliz@gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_T=C3=A1vora?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri May 08 04:50:00 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jWt5M-000Aqg-3d for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 08 May 2020 04:50:00 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59402 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWt5L-0000Ye-5r for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 07 May 2020 22:49:59 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47976) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWt4t-00007W-VM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2020 22:49:31 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:35967) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWt4t-0000dn-1S; Thu, 07 May 2020 22:49:31 -0400 Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jWt4l-0004v3-92; Thu, 07 May 2020 22:49:23 -0400 In-Reply-To: (message from =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_T=C3=A1vora?= on Thu, 7 May 2020 11:14:31 +0100) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:249235 Archived-At: [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Now, what I stated is that it would be immoral to permit this to continue: > Immoral is a strong word. I should have used Thank you for taking back that word. It hurt my feelings. > "unfair" or "untenable". Or perhaps "Would have a significant drawback"? That I can agree with you about. Still, it may be the best choice available under the circumstances. > Q: So what could we do, technically, to remedy the situation? A: Provide > a way for the package to have a longer prefix *and* package users > to use it with a short prefix. I agree that would be the ideal outcome, but it is easier said than done. In the 1980s, developing the Lisp Machine and Common Lisp, we designed a namespace (called "package") system the best way we could see, and it turned out so problematic in use that I concluded the best practice was never to use it nontrivially. Thus I decided, when writing Emacs Lisp to, to avoid conflicts by means of name prefixes, and not have packages at all. However, the state of the art may have advanced since then. This week you said there was a kind of namespace system for Lisp that works well and avoids those problems. If that is true, it could be a good solution. I couldn't follow how that worksn or why it is better. That is not your fault. I was so overloaded and hurried that I didn't have time for careful reading of your technical arguments. Thus, at present I have not seen a demonstration that we have a good solution. I am not saying we don't, only that I don't know enough to judge. Another obstacle for my reading those messages was that you were responding to other people's questions, which were not the same questions that I need to understand. Can you show me programmer's intro to using a package system of the sort you're advocating? I think I could tell what I need to know from that. After that, would you be willing to talk with me by voice so I can understand enough to see whether this is a good solution? -- Dr Richard Stallman Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)