From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Richard Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: "Why is emacs so square?" Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:37:48 -0400 Message-ID: References: <863691n4xl.wl-me@enzu.ru> <86blno9yle.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87d0845msg.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h7xgjasw.fsf@yahoo.com> <875zdwjais.fsf@yahoo.com> <6a198677-41b6-4dbd-39d0-2b01550d53cf@yandex.ru> <32f6a2ce-e30f-059f-dcd4-233d666a10a1@yandex.ru> <87r1whiape.fsf@fastmail.fm> <87blnjopd0.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <83v9lregx0.fsf@gnu.org> <87sgguh9we.fsf@fastmail.fm> Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="23013"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Joost Kremers Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Apr 24 04:38:32 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jRoEa-0005sj-2v for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 04:38:32 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47614 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRoEZ-00031a-2T for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:38:31 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:49628) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRoDu-0002IP-AQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:37:50 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:33376) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRoDt-0005EX-VX; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:37:50 -0400 Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jRoDs-0006qo-Nw; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:37:48 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87sgguh9we.fsf@fastmail.fm> (message from Joost Kremers on Thu, 23 Apr 2020 10:41:05 +0200) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247653 Archived-At: [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Org's biggest strength > is that the various features are tightly integrated. You may see that as an advantage, but I consider it a drawback. The "tight integration" of these different features is an obstacle to learning to use one of them, or even finding out about one of them. *We need to make them separate.* Separate and integrated are not opposites. It is possible for several features to be integrated, in the sense that they work together _when you want that_, and also separate, in the sense that we describe each one separately and you can learn about one without paying the slightest attention to the others. That doesn't > mean you couldn't use Org for just one of its features, you > definitely could, but the beauty of the system is that the > different features aren't strictly separated. I would say that is the complexity and obscurity of the system. I think we can make them clearly separate, for purposes of documenting them, without reducing the ability to integrate them for users who use more than one. > =paper.org=. So far, so uninteresting. But with Org you can put > TODO notes in =paper.org=, add deadlines, date and time stamps, > etc., anything Org supports. Then, when you display your agenda > (i.e., run a function that takes the contents of, in this example, > =agenda.org=, and creates a nice overview of it in an agenda-like > fashion), you can have the TODO items, deadlines etc. from I can see that that integration is useful -- but _the fact that it applies only to "parts of Org mode"_ makes it also a a limitation. It is a drawback that _only_ the modes that are "part of Org mode" can integrate with these features -- and the rest of Emacs cannot do so. Instead of dividing Emacs facilities and modes into the "Org first-class modes" and the "Org second-class modes", we should make all modes equally able to integrate in these ways. > > It would make more sense to call them various different modes. > > That > > they all use a certain way of formatting the text may not be > > important > > to mention. > Actually, it's crucial to mention that. People who want to use a specific one of these facilities don't need to know that. It is useful for those users who want to use more than one of these facilities together -- but that should be an advanced topic. -- Dr Richard Stallman Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)