From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: bug#22145: 25.0.50; tramp and auto-revert tests hang on OS X Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2016 23:07:59 -0500 Message-ID: References: <87y4cqfdi8.fsf@gmx.de> <87r3ihfgkv.fsf@gmx.de> <87d1u16s8t.fsf@gmx.de> <87zix557k2.fsf@gmx.de> <87si2u4uek.fsf@gmx.de> <87mvsjzp1i.fsf@gmx.de> <87h9irz4t7.fsf@gmx.de> <83poxe35nz.fsf@gnu.org> <87wprlrwbk.fsf@gmx.de> Reply-To: rms@gnu.org NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1452398914 14259 80.91.229.3 (10 Jan 2016 04:08:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 04:08:34 +0000 (UTC) Cc: michael.albinus@gmx.de, andlind@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "John Wiegley" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jan 10 05:08:24 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1aI7Il-0005gR-Ut for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 10 Jan 2016 05:08:24 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45155 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aI7Ih-0006E1-Rz for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 09 Jan 2016 23:08:19 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45162) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aI7IV-0006Dj-OE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jan 2016 23:08:08 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aI7IU-0004Qo-Mk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jan 2016 23:08:07 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:57280) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aI7IN-0004NO-PR; Sat, 09 Jan 2016 23:07:59 -0500 Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1aI7IN-0003tm-0r; Sat, 09 Jan 2016 23:07:59 -0500 In-reply-to: (message from John Wiegley on Sat, 09 Jan 2016 13:05:11 -0800) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:197948 Archived-At: [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > One thing we should clarify: Mac OS X is Darwin + some proprietary libraries. > Darwin is free/libre software, and all its source code is downloadable[1]. > This is how the Nix project on Mac is able to be so self-contained. This was true some 10 years ago. Since then I heard that Apple had stopped releasing updates for Darwin. The person who told me this is the person who maintained the GNU/Darwin distro. I mention that to suggest we ascertain the current facts,, but that is not a crucial question in practice because few people use Darwin. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the MacOS support does include use of the MacOS graphical interface. Even if another system is free, we don't want GNU Emacs to support it better than it supports the GNU system. The technical goal of GNU Emacs is to be an advance in the GNU system. Support for other systems is a side issue, a tangent. We should not let other systems lead us away from the overall purpose of making GNU better. > So, let us not say that "MacOS tramples freedom" and should be eliminated. That's how it is. MacOS includes proprietary software, therefore it tramples freedom. In order for a collection of software to respect users' freedom, each and every component in the collection must respect users' freedom. If there is one nonfree program in the collection, it tramples freedom. When we describe the injustice of MacOS, distinguishing between Darwin (if Darwin is still real) and the rest of MacOS would be a distracting complication. We can acknowledge it when people ask about Darwin; but when we're talking to the general public, there's no need to talk about Darwin. > Rather, the proprietary bits that run on top of Darwin, and the license used > by Apple for these bits, are what should be eliminated. Indeed, those programs are what make MacOS an injustice. For most purposes, it doesn't matter which parts of MacOS are nonfree. Subdividing MacOS into parts is interesting only to a few; it is a side issue. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org) Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.