From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Upcoming loss of usability of Emacs source files and Emacs. Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2015 10:16:40 -0400 Message-ID: References: <20150615142237.GA3517@acm.fritz.box> <87y4jkhqh5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <557F3C22.4060909@cs.ucla.edu> <5580D356.4050708@cs.ucla.edu> <87si9qonxb.fsf@gnu.org> <55826DCC.9040404@cs.ucla.edu> <55850208.3080605@cs.ucla.edu> <5585C279.3030607@cs.ucla.edu> Reply-To: rms@gnu.org NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1434896236 4840 80.91.229.3 (21 Jun 2015 14:17:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2015 14:17:16 +0000 (UTC) Cc: acm@muc.de, stephen@xemacs.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, tsdh@gnu.org To: Paul Eggert Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jun 21 16:17:06 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Z6g3S-0003uL-OQ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 21 Jun 2015 16:17:02 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36406 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z6g3R-0001wh-Np for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 21 Jun 2015 10:17:01 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40140) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z6g3P-0001ve-FU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Jun 2015 10:17:00 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z6g3O-0002BQ-Gy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Jun 2015 10:16:59 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:51136) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z6g3B-00027n-F8; Sun, 21 Jun 2015 10:16:45 -0400 Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1Z6g36-0005xJ-Ni; Sun, 21 Jun 2015 10:16:41 -0400 In-reply-to: <5585C279.3030607@cs.ucla.edu> (message from Paul Eggert on Sat, 20 Jun 2015 12:43:53 -0700) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:187344 Archived-At: [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] You have presented practical arguments, but they are extremely minor ones; they can't justify much. > Not in the first day, but we have people use Emacs over a period of ten weeks, > as part of a software construction course. A primary benefit of Emacs over > editors like vim (which is what we've also used in the past) is its > programmability. I want students to be able to read and understand the source > code of the tools they're using. To understand Emacs Lisp (beyond the rudiments) one must learn an awful lot. A convention such as `...' is insignificant by comparison. Thus, the benefit of eliminating `...' would be little. As long as both `...' and curly quotes are being used, instead of a tiny simplification it would be a tiny extra complication. > Although they apply primarily to the UI, they also apply to source code. > Previously a docstring couldn't unambiguously quote Lisp code containing ' or `. > Now it can. When we mention a complicated expression in a doc string, we typically put it on separate lines, for readability. Then we don't need any sort of quotation marks around it. Thus, this issue is not a real problem in practice. > Previously one could cut from a *Help* buffer and paste into a > docstring; this remains true only because curved quotes now work > in a docstring I recommend copying from the source code of the function. (One might want to copy more than just the doc string.) > Also, nonexperts read Lisp code at times, and we're better off simplifying the > process of reading the code and becoming expert. What I said about the first point applies here too: to guess the meaning of `...' is insignificant by comparison with the rest of what you have to guess, and as long as both forms are used, this means a tiny complication rather than a tiny simplification. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org) Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.