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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: bidi-display-reordering is now non-nil by default
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 09:39:35 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <E1Qr90R-00051S-GE@fencepost.gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <jwvd3gdbe8t.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org> (message from Stefan Monnier on Wed, 10 Aug 2011 09:20:34 -0400)

> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 09:20:34 -0400
> 
> >> Also, while I'm here.  I re-suggest to change the default of
> >> bidi-paragraph-direction to left-to-right, since I think that preserves
> >> backward compatibility a lot better.
> > You never explained what backward compatibility is alluded to here.
> 
> Emacs has done only ever left-to-right until now.  So if we use
> right-to-left where left-to-right was needed, it's a regression, whereas
> if we use  left-to-right where right-to-left was needed it's not.

You are judging this from the POV or a non-R2L reader, who doesn't
really care about correct display of R2L text.  From the POV of R2L
readers, what Emacs did before v24 is a "regression", and the current
behavior is the correct one.

It is true that R2L text will be readable in Emacs 24 even with
left-to-right paragraphs, whereas in previous versions it was
illegible, but it still looks wrong to the R2L eye, and in some cases
(like very long lines that mix R2L and L2R) it's downright annoying.

It would be a real regression if Emacs would sometimes display strict
L2R text as right-to-left paragraphs.  But this is not the case.

IOW, Emacs 24 explicitly breaks "backward compatibility" in this
regard, and for a very good reason.  Some applications need to adapt
to that, true, but this adaptation is the remaining 10% of the long
journey from 100% non-support of bidi to 100% support.

> >> We can set it to nil in the major modes where we know it can be
> >> useful, such as text-mode.
> > What other modes will need this?
> 
> No idea.

Well, then how do we make sure that changing the default to
left-to-right will not make things worse than leaving it at nil?  The
list of modes that need left-to-right paragraphs and do not yet get
them due to inheritance from prog-mode is known (and currently very
short), because people complained.  Relying on similar complaints
after changing the default to left-to-right is not the best idea,
since the number of R2L users is much smaller than that of the other
kind.



  reply	other threads:[~2011-08-10 13:39 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 232+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2011-07-28 17:21 bidi-display-reordering is now non-nil by default Eli Zaretskii
2011-07-28 18:51 ` David Kastrup
2011-07-28 20:35   ` Juanma Barranquero
2011-07-30 22:55 ` Werner LEMBERG
2011-07-31  3:06   ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-07-31  6:21     ` Werner LEMBERG
2011-07-31  6:29       ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-07-31  6:44         ` Werner LEMBERG
2011-07-31  7:01           ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-07-31  7:36             ` Werner LEMBERG
2011-07-31  6:17   ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-07-31  6:27     ` Werner LEMBERG
2011-07-31  6:40       ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-07-31  6:51         ` Werner LEMBERG
2011-07-31  7:59           ` David Kastrup
2011-07-31  9:03             ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-07-31  9:15               ` David Kastrup
2011-07-31  9:34                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-07-31  9:54                   ` David Kastrup
2011-07-31 10:18                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-07-31 10:35                       ` David Kastrup
2011-07-31 12:01                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-07-31 13:23                           ` David Kastrup
2011-07-31 13:43                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-07-31 11:07                   ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2011-07-31 12:22                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-07-31 13:25                       ` David Kastrup
2011-07-31 13:38                         ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2011-07-31 13:54                           ` David Kastrup
2011-07-31 13:59                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-07-31 14:26                               ` David Kastrup
2011-07-31 15:44                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-01  1:14                                   ` Mohsen BANAN
2011-08-01  2:54                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-03  2:39                                       ` Mohsen BANAN
2011-08-03  8:56                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-01 15:51                                     ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2011-08-03  2:56                                       ` Mohsen BANAN
2011-08-03 18:45                                         ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2011-08-03 19:30                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-04  3:23                                             ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2011-08-04  5:16                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-04  6:55                                                 ` Kenichi Handa
2011-08-04 10:12                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-09  6:11                                                     ` Kenichi Handa
2011-08-09  7:00                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-04 10:04                                                 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2011-08-04 10:36                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-04 13:55                                                     ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2011-08-04 14:04                                                       ` David Kastrup
2011-08-04 14:59                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-04 14:53                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-04 16:55                                                         ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2011-08-04 17:07                                                           ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2011-08-04 17:43                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-05  3:38                                                             ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2011-08-05  5:46                                                               ` David Kastrup
2011-08-05  6:40                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-05  8:00                                                                 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2011-08-04 13:59                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-08-04 14:56                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-05  3:41                                             ` Michael Welsh Duggan
2011-08-05  6:56                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-05 17:56                                             ` Chong Yidong
2011-08-05 18:10                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-05 18:45                                                 ` Chong Yidong
2011-08-05 20:30                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-05 21:54                                                     ` Chong Yidong
2011-08-06  2:01                                                       ` Jason Rumney
2011-08-06  7:07                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-07 17:21                                                         ` Chong Yidong
2011-08-07 19:32                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-09 16:07                                                             ` Chong Yidong
2011-08-09 16:23                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-09 16:30                                                                 ` David Kastrup
2011-08-09 17:12                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-09 17:26                                                                     ` David Kastrup
2011-08-09 17:34                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-09 18:00                                                                         ` David Kastrup
2011-08-10  0:24                                                                           ` Richard Stallman
2011-08-11  5:38                                                                         ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2011-08-09 22:26                                                                 ` Chong Yidong
2011-08-10  1:03                                                                   ` Stefan Monnier
2011-08-10  1:14                                                                     ` David Kastrup
2011-08-10  4:50                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-10 16:07                                                                         ` Chong Yidong
2011-08-10 16:40                                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-10 16:52                                                                             ` Chong Yidong
2011-08-10 17:13                                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-11  2:45                                                                               ` Mohsen BANAN
2011-08-10  3:07                                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-10 13:20                                                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2011-08-10 13:39                                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii [this message]
2011-08-10  3:04                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-10  5:36                                                                     ` David Kastrup
2011-08-10 13:22                                                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2011-08-17 22:21                                                           ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2011-08-17 22:25                                                             ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2011-08-17 23:14                                                               ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2011-08-18  7:23                                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-18  7:00                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-09-10 19:11                                                                 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2011-09-10 19:30                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-09-10 19:33                                                                     ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2011-08-06 15:51                                                       ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2011-08-06 16:16                                                         ` David Kastrup
2011-08-06 16:17                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-06 19:21                                                       ` Mohsen BANAN
2011-07-31 13:54                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-02 15:34                           ` Stefan Monnier
2011-08-02 16:09                             ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2011-08-02 16:42                               ` David Kastrup
2011-08-02 16:48                                 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2011-08-02 18:27                                 ` James Cloos
2011-08-02 16:50                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-02 17:01                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-01 15:45         ` Chong Yidong
2011-08-01 17:44           ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-01 20:33             ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2011-08-02  5:06               ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-02  7:20                 ` David Kastrup
2011-08-02  7:43                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-02 10:27                     ` Štěpán Němec
2011-08-02 11:33                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-02 13:37                 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2011-08-02 17:10                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-02 17:35                     ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2011-08-02 19:44                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-03  3:04                         ` محسن بنان
2011-08-03  5:11                           ` James Cloos
2011-08-03  5:52                             ` Mohsen BANAN
2011-08-03  9:28                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-03 12:08                               ` James Cloos
2011-08-03 12:57                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-03 13:06                                   ` James Cloos
2011-08-03 13:48                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-03 14:10                                       ` James Cloos
2011-08-03 16:08                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-03 17:20                                           ` Mohsen BANAN
2011-08-03  8:42                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-03 19:26                             ` main
2011-08-02 15:43           ` Stefan Monnier
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2011-08-15  8:04 Andrey Paramonov
2011-08-15  9:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-15  9:24   ` David Kastrup
2011-08-15 10:20     ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-15 10:46       ` David Kastrup
2011-08-15 11:10         ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-15 11:27           ` David Kastrup
2011-08-15 11:56             ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-15 12:56               ` David Kastrup
2011-08-15 13:07                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-15 13:59     ` Stefan Monnier
2011-08-15 14:18       ` David Kastrup
2011-08-15 16:57         ` Stefan Monnier
2011-08-15 17:12         ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-15 16:55       ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-15 18:13         ` Stefan Monnier
2011-08-17 20:34           ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2011-08-18 16:14           ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-22  6:02             ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-22 19:35               ` Stefan Monnier
2011-08-23  8:05                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-23 18:19                   ` Stefan Monnier
2011-08-23 19:03                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-23 19:17                       ` Stefan Monnier
2011-08-24  6:35                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-24  9:02                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-24 14:51                           ` Stefan Monnier
2011-08-24 16:55                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-25  4:38                               ` Stefan Monnier
2011-08-25  6:12                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-26  3:55                                   ` Stefan Monnier
2011-08-26  7:31                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-27  2:53                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2011-08-27  8:16                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-28  2:52                                           ` Stefan Monnier
2011-08-28  6:03                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-29 14:46                                               ` Stefan Monnier
2011-08-25 10:50                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-22 19:37               ` Stefan Monnier
2011-08-22 21:35                 ` Štěpán Němec
2011-08-23  1:13                   ` Stefan Monnier
2011-08-23  9:58                     ` Štěpán Němec
2011-08-23 18:24                       ` Stefan Monnier
2011-08-23 19:14                         ` Štěpán Němec
2011-08-23  8:40                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-15 18:28         ` Chong Yidong
2011-08-15 20:41           ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-16  1:11             ` Stefan Monnier
2011-08-16  2:02             ` Chong Yidong
2011-08-16  6:47               ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-16  7:07                 ` David Kastrup
2011-08-16  9:25                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-16 10:01                     ` David Kastrup
2011-08-16 10:37                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-16  7:40                 ` Andreas Schwab
2011-08-16  7:54                   ` David Kastrup
2011-08-16  9:20                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-16  9:40                       ` David Kastrup
2011-08-16 10:01                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-16 14:10                           ` Stefan Monnier
2011-08-16  9:03                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-16  9:10                     ` Andreas Schwab
2011-08-16  9:55                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-16  9:03                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-16 14:03                 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-08-16 14:48                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-16 15:48                 ` Chong Yidong
2011-08-16 17:50                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-16 22:24                     ` Chong Yidong
2011-08-17  6:30                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-17  9:34                         ` Juri Linkov
2011-08-17 10:05                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-17 22:32                         ` Chong Yidong
2011-08-18  8:21                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-18 17:13                             ` Chong Yidong
2011-08-18 17:45                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-18 22:44                                 ` Chong Yidong
2011-08-19  3:16                                   ` Stefan Monnier
2011-08-19  7:25                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-19 20:00                                       ` Chong Yidong
2011-08-19 19:29                                     ` Chong Yidong
2011-08-19  7:13                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-19 19:43                                     ` Chong Yidong
2011-08-20  7:39                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-19 14:51                                   ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2011-08-19 15:12                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-15  9:27   ` Andrey Paramonov
2011-08-16 10:02 Andrey Paramonov
2011-08-16 10:40 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-08-16 11:27   ` Andrey Paramonov

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