unofficial mirror of emacs-devel@gnu.org 
 help / color / mirror / code / Atom feed
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: Andy Moreton <andrewjmoreton@gmail.com>
Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: `C-b' is backward-char, `left' is left-char - why?
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 11:09:09 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <E1QS9WH-00053a-QD@fencepost.gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <vz1r57cbd8b.fsf@gmail.com> (message from Andy Moreton on Thu, 02 Jun 2011 13:59:48 +0100)

> From: Andy Moreton <andrewjmoreton@gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 13:59:48 +0100
> 
> > Maybe the following variant of the 2nd sentence sounds better:
> >
> >   The effect on the screen is to place the cursor on the character N
> >   buffer positions forward, which could be to the left or to the
> >   right, depending on the bidirectional context.
> >
> > That's because Emacs doesn't really move point one character at a
> > time (when N is more than 1).
> 
> I think that is definitely clearer than what we have now.

Thanks, I will make this change.

> (right-char &optional N)
> 
> Move point N characters to the right (to the left if N is negative). On
> reaching beginning or end of buffer, stop and signal error.
> 
> The effect on the buffer is to place the cursor on the character N
> screen positions to the right, which could be forward or backward from
> the current position, depending on the bidirectional context.

Here, as they say, the plot thickens: unlike C-f/C-b that _always_
move forward resp backward in the buffer, <right> and <left> don't
always move to the right resp to the left.  E.g., if you press <right>
in a paragraph whose bidi-paragraph-direction is left-to-right, then
the cursor will actually move to the _left_ when you get to some R2L
text embedded within this paragraph.  You can see an example of this
in etc/HELLO, in the lines that show Arabic and Hebrew welcome
phrases.

So if you invoke (right-char 10) when point is on characters from some
R2L script, the cursor could move to the left!

IOW, the names of <right> and <left> only express the _global_,
"grosso modo" direction of motion.  That generally DTRT (according to
user expectations) assuming that left-to-right paragraphs contain
mostly L2R text and only occasionally short sequences of R2L text; and
vice versa in right-to-left paragraphs.  But if a left-to-right
paragraph is made solely out of R2L text (a very rare and unusual
phenomenon), <right> will almost always move to the _left_, and <left>
to the right!  So in this case, even the large-scale movement is in
the "wrong" direction.

But while we could (for the doc string purposes) quite safely
disregard the use case of paragraph having the "wrong" direction and
disrupting the global movement direction as described above, the doc
string you suggest is wrong even locally, when short sequences of R2L
text are embedded in an otherwise left-to-right paragraph, or vice
versa.  This cannot be disregarded, so we must find a better way of
describing the effect of the arrow keys in mixed bidirectional text.
Ideas are welcome.



  reply	other threads:[~2011-06-02 15:09 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 66+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2011-05-27 20:40 `C-b' is backward-char, `left' is left-char - why? Drew Adams
2011-05-27 20:48 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2011-05-27 21:11   ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-05-27 22:08   ` Drew Adams
2011-05-28  0:19   ` Nix
2011-05-27 21:09 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-05-27 21:13   ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-05-27 22:08   ` Drew Adams
2011-05-27 22:23     ` Antoine Levitt
2011-05-27 23:19       ` Drew Adams
2011-05-28  0:46         ` Mohsen BANAN
2011-05-28  1:53           ` Drew Adams
2011-05-28  2:24             ` Mohsen BANAN
2011-05-28  8:00         ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-05-27 23:09     ` PJ Weisberg
2011-05-27 23:23       ` Drew Adams
2011-05-28  0:25         ` PJ Weisberg
2011-05-28  0:39           ` Drew Adams
2011-05-28  6:57             ` David Kastrup
2011-05-28  8:21     ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-05-28  0:48 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-05-28  1:54   ` Drew Adams
2011-05-28  7:07     ` David Kastrup
2011-05-28  8:26     ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-05-30  3:57     ` Stefan Monnier
2011-05-31 14:18       ` Davis Herring
2011-05-31 14:39         ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-06-01 11:48         ` Andy Moreton
2011-06-01 13:23           ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-06-01 23:26             ` Andy Moreton
2011-06-02  4:37               ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-06-02 10:38                 ` Andy Moreton
2011-06-02 11:12                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-06-02 12:59                     ` Andy Moreton
2011-06-02 15:09                       ` Eli Zaretskii [this message]
2011-06-02 16:23                         ` Andy Moreton
2011-06-02 17:43                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-06-02 21:42                             ` Andy Moreton
2011-06-03  7:01                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-06-02 17:09                         ` David Kastrup
2011-06-02 18:05                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-06-03 14:35                             ` David Kastrup
2011-06-03 15:08                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-06-03 15:14                                 ` David Kastrup
2011-06-03 16:48                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-06-03 20:56                                     ` David Kastrup
2011-06-04  6:28                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-06-05 16:51                                 ` Ehud Karni
2011-06-05 17:10                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-06-05 17:19                                     ` Ehud Karni
2011-06-05 17:26                                       ` David Kastrup
2011-06-05 17:44                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-06-05 18:26                                           ` David Kastrup
2011-06-05 19:22                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-06-07  8:51                                               ` David Kastrup
2011-06-07 10:54                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-06-02 15:35                       ` PJ Weisberg
2011-06-02 17:44                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-06-02 19:29                           ` PJ Weisberg
2011-06-02 21:10                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-06-03  0:47                   ` Kenichi Handa
2011-06-03  7:13                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-06-05 11:27                       ` Kenichi Handa
2011-06-05 13:04                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-06-02  7:23             ` David Kastrup
2011-06-02  8:59               ` Eli Zaretskii

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

  List information: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=E1QS9WH-00053a-QD@fencepost.gnu.org \
    --to=eliz@gnu.org \
    --cc=andrewjmoreton@gmail.com \
    --cc=emacs-devel@gnu.org \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
Code repositories for project(s) associated with this public inbox

	https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git

This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for read-only IMAP folder(s) and NNTP newsgroup(s).