From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: position on changing defaults? Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 22:35:26 -0500 Message-ID: References: <200803050637.m256bXL3008361@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu> <200803052230.m25MUORx001881@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu> <87mypcn4od.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <200803060349.m263nKHn002156@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu> Reply-To: rms@gnu.org NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1204860940 26239 80.91.229.12 (7 Mar 2008 03:35:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 03:35:40 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Miles Bader Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Mar 07 04:36:07 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JXTNO-0002vf-JQ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 04:36:06 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JXTMr-0001rc-0H for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 06 Mar 2008 22:35:33 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JXTMn-0001rV-Qr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 06 Mar 2008 22:35:29 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JXTMl-0001r4-O4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 06 Mar 2008 22:35:28 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JXTMl-0001qt-DK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 06 Mar 2008 22:35:27 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JXTMl-0008TE-3b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 06 Mar 2008 22:35:27 -0500 Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1JXTMk-0000sj-2N; Thu, 06 Mar 2008 22:35:26 -0500 In-reply-to: (message from Miles Bader on Thu, 06 Mar 2008 13:10:11 +0900) X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:91584 Archived-At: ibuffer's UI was never subjected to the scrutiny appropriate for changes in standard Emacs interfaces. Someone said he wanted to install it as a powerful optional alternative, and since (from the description) it did seem powerful, I said ok without paying much attention. I never tried using it, and I didn't try to learn just what it did. As an optional alternative, it did not need any more scrutiny than that. Some people use it and like it, and it can't bother anyone else. Whenever people wanted to enhance ibuffer, I didn't really look at what was being proposed. If the people who used ibuffer were happy with the enhancements, that was good enough. I wasn't one of them, and I was busy. A proposal to change the way the buffer list works by default is another matter. Each detail of that should receive careful thought. Just because ibuffer does X and Y and Z, that doesn't mean that if we make X the default then we should make Y and Z the default too. We might want X with Y' instead of Y, and not Z at all. *Buffer List* is described in the Emacs Manual. We have no Texinfo documentation for ibuffer. Part of making any ibuffer features the default would be writing them up for the manual. Writing a clear description may not be easy, and not everyone here has the skill to write good documentation in English. Having good text to put in the manual should be a prerequisite for making it the default (if we want to). Trying to write a clear description of these features could a crucial test of whether they would be a good default. If the proposed new documentation is harder to understand than the current documentation of the current featrues, that suggests the change should not be mde. Perhaps it would be good to adopt the general policy that proposals for changes in parts of the Emacs UI that are documented in the Emacs Manual should come with the corresponding change in the manual.