* Experimental features
@ 2007-06-22 21:05 Stefan Monnier
2007-06-22 21:22 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
` (3 more replies)
0 siblings, 4 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2007-06-22 21:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-devel
Release practice during Emacs-21 at least is that new features could only
appear in new major releases, except for a few small exceptions.
I'd like to change that to make released Emacsen evolve faster.
One way to do that would be to introduce the idea of "experimental"
features which could be added to any minor release.
An experimental feature would be disabled by default and the code should be
written in such a way that as long as the feature is enabled, it's clearly
obvious that it cannot have any negative effect.
We'd then provide a way for the user to activate some of the experimental
features from her .emacs file. After some time, we would promote the new
feature such that it is not experimental any more.
Stefan
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread* Re: Experimental features 2007-06-22 21:05 Experimental features Stefan Monnier @ 2007-06-22 21:22 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail) 2007-06-23 4:15 ` Stefan Monnier 2007-06-23 2:51 ` dhruva ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman (gmail) @ 2007-06-22 21:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: emacs-devel Stefan Monnier wrote: > Release practice during Emacs-21 at least is that new features could only > appear in new major releases, except for a few small exceptions. > > I'd like to change that to make released Emacsen evolve faster. > One way to do that would be to introduce the idea of "experimental" > features which could be added to any minor release. I like the idea. Maybe the package manager discussed before could come in to help here too? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Experimental features 2007-06-22 21:22 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail) @ 2007-06-23 4:15 ` Stefan Monnier 2007-06-23 12:40 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2007-06-23 4:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Lennart Borgman (gmail); +Cc: emacs-devel > I like the idea. Maybe the package manager discussed before could come in > to help here too? Oh, no, please! Let's not drag this into it, OK? Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Experimental features 2007-06-23 4:15 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2007-06-23 12:40 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen 2007-06-23 19:07 ` Stefan Monnier 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Thien-Thi Nguyen @ 2007-06-23 12:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: Lennart Borgman (gmail), emacs-devel () Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> () Sat, 23 Jun 2007 00:15:06 -0400 > I like the idea. Maybe the package manager discussed before > could come in to help here too? Oh, no, please! Let's not drag this into it, OK? it can't be helped. "experimental" is metadata (label, i.e., boolean property). package management is proper metadata management, among other (logistically-oriented) concerns. another thing about metadata: if useful, it can be applied to more things than the original domain. i.e., if code to be distributed w/ emacs can be labeled "experimental", why not other code outside of emacs? how does emacs' semantics for "experimental" interoperate w/ external semantics? etc. to be (more) concrete: at the moment, there is only convention: Commentary comment and w/in it Author, Maintainer, Version "tags". your proposal is not simply to suggest adding "Experimental: t" (or perhaps equivalently "Keywords: ... experimental ..."). it is to codify the handling of this information w/ user-visible consequences. when it is to be treated like so, it is no longer merely conventional. thus, proper metadata management is again indicated. thi ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Experimental features 2007-06-23 12:40 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen @ 2007-06-23 19:07 ` Stefan Monnier 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2007-06-23 19:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Thien-Thi Nguyen; +Cc: Lennart Borgman (gmail), emacs-devel >> I like the idea. Maybe the package manager discussed before >> could come in to help here too? > Oh, no, please! Let's not drag this into it, OK? > it can't be helped. Oh, yes, it can. We did not need a package manager to introduce the notion of "obsolete" features. Similarly we do not need a package manager to introduce the notion of "experimental" features. Furthermore feature!=package. I guess it's all my fault. I should have sent a patch rather than just text, that was stupid of me. People are thinking of a bug package manager, when I'm just thinking of a minor change to autoload.el plus a custom variable (together with an adjustment of policy w.r.t minor releases). Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Experimental features 2007-06-22 21:05 Experimental features Stefan Monnier 2007-06-22 21:22 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail) @ 2007-06-23 2:51 ` dhruva 2007-06-23 6:00 ` Andreas Röhler 2007-06-23 13:19 ` Richard Stallman 3 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: dhruva @ 2007-06-23 2:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: emacs-devel Hi, On 6/23/07, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote: > We'd then provide a way for the user to activate some of the experimental > features from her .emacs file. After some time, we would promote the new This will be a good welcome move. Features get more testing (by explicitly enabling it in the experimental stage). If an experimental package is dependent on another experimental package, a mechanism needs to be evolved on either enabling the other package implicitly (dangerous) or notify to the user in a very obvious manner (by offering to bring up the customization page to enable it by the user). Anyway, this is a move forward. So far, I have been downloading all scattered packages and using them. I would prefer them to be distributed as part of Emacs and ability to enable or disable them optionally. with best regards, dhruva -- Dhruva Krishnamurthy Contents reflect my personal views only! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Experimental features 2007-06-22 21:05 Experimental features Stefan Monnier 2007-06-22 21:22 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail) 2007-06-23 2:51 ` dhruva @ 2007-06-23 6:00 ` Andreas Röhler 2007-06-24 1:43 ` T. V. Raman 2007-06-23 13:19 ` Richard Stallman 3 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Andreas Röhler @ 2007-06-23 6:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel; +Cc: Stefan Monnier, Richard Stallman Am Freitag, 22. Juni 2007 23:05 schrieb Stefan Monnier: > Release practice during Emacs-21 at least is that new features could only > appear in new major releases, except for a few small exceptions. > > I'd like to change that to make released Emacsen evolve faster. > One way to do that would be to introduce the idea of "experimental" > features which could be added to any minor release. > > An experimental feature would be disabled by default and the code should be > written in such a way that as long as the feature is enabled, it's clearly > obvious that it cannot have any negative effect. > > We'd then provide a way for the user to activate some of the experimental > features from her .emacs file. After some time, we would promote the new > feature such that it is not experimental any more. > > > Stefan > Very good idea. But let's put the question more thoroughly: as the realm of computing is vast and ever expands, you have to give up the idea to incorporate any valid program into core-Emacs sooner or later. Emacs already is unnecessary big for most of the purposes. Thus it starts not as quick as others, risks not to be first choice for calling under certain circumstances. That's a pity for me, because I prefer it. Don't want to write any line without it, even not to my mother. :) I propose a more slim core emacs coming with an install-shield, which lets users click features, some of them may be marked as experimental too. Given this, I would be glad to see common third-party features as ESS, ECB, Emacspeak etc. reachable too that way. I'm aware this would mean a major work. However, it must not be done at once. It offers great chances, because it would ease the use for many people, thus expanding the number of users. Andreas Roehler ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Experimental features 2007-06-23 6:00 ` Andreas Röhler @ 2007-06-24 1:43 ` T. V. Raman 2007-06-24 3:02 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: T. V. Raman @ 2007-06-24 1:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: andreas.roehler; +Cc: monnier, rms, emacs-devel The other advantage in doing what you suggest is that external packages can evolve more rapidly than Emacs. Including things with core emacs is primarily a user convenience; but that then becomes an inconvenience if core Emacs includes an older version of an external package, because, now the user has to know to grab the unbundled package and install it such that it shadows what is bundled with Emacs. Thus, I believe: A) Core Emacs should unbundle --- not bundle more packages B) Core Emacs needs a light-weight means for users to discover and incorporate additional esxternal packages into their site. >>>>> "Andreas" == Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@online.de> writes: Andreas> Am Freitag, 22. Juni 2007 23:05 schrieb Stefan Andreas> Monnier: >> Release practice during Emacs-21 at least is that new >> features could only appear in new major releases, except >> for a few small exceptions. >> >> I'd like to change that to make released Emacsen evolve >> faster. One way to do that would be to introduce the idea >> of "experimental" features which could be added to any >> minor release. >> >> An experimental feature would be disabled by default and >> the code should be written in such a way that as long as >> the feature is enabled, it's clearly obvious that it >> cannot have any negative effect. >> >> We'd then provide a way for the user to activate some of >> the experimental features from her .emacs file. After >> some time, we would promote the new feature such that it >> is not experimental any more. >> >> >> Stefan >> Andreas> Very good idea. But let's put the question more thoroughly: as Andreas> the realm of computing is vast and ever expands, you Andreas> have to give up the idea to incorporate any valid Andreas> program into core-Emacs sooner or later. Andreas> Andreas> Emacs already is unnecessary big for most of the Andreas> purposes. Thus it starts not as quick as others, Andreas> risks not to be first choice for calling under Andreas> certain circumstances. That's a pity for me, because Andreas> I prefer it. Don't want to write any line without Andreas> it, even not to my mother. :) Andreas> Andreas> I propose a more slim core emacs coming with an Andreas> install-shield, which lets users click features, Andreas> some of them may be marked as experimental too. Andreas> Andreas> Given this, I would be glad to see common Andreas> third-party features as ESS, ECB, Emacspeak Andreas> etc. reachable too that way. Andreas> Andreas> I'm aware this would mean a major work. However, it Andreas> must not be done at once. It offers great chances, Andreas> because it would ease the use for many people, thus Andreas> expanding the number of users. Andreas> Andreas> Andreas Roehler Andreas> Andreas> Andreas> _______________________________________________ Andreas> Emacs-devel mailing list Emacs-devel@gnu.org Andreas> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-devel -- Best Regards, --raman Email: raman@users.sf.net WWW: http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/ AIM: emacspeak GTalk: tv.raman.tv@gmail.com PGP: http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/raman-almaden.asc Google: tv+raman IRC: irc://irc.freenode.net/#emacs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Experimental features 2007-06-24 1:43 ` T. V. Raman @ 2007-06-24 3:02 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-06-24 3:59 ` T. V. Raman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-06-24 3:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: raman; +Cc: andreas.roehler, emacs-devel > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 18:43:34 -0700 > From: "T. V. Raman" <raman@users.sf.net> > Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > The other advantage in doing what you suggest is that external > packages can evolve more rapidly than Emacs. Why is that an advantage? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Experimental features 2007-06-24 3:02 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-06-24 3:59 ` T. V. Raman 2007-06-24 18:42 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: T. V. Raman @ 2007-06-24 3:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: eliz; +Cc: emacs-devel, andreas.roehler, raman That is an advantage because as we have seen with the transition from emacs 21.4 to 22, it takes a *long* time for a major Emacs version to come out --- and with good reason, since stability of Emacs is important to all of us. But that also means that smaller packages will --- and *should* be allowed to --- evolve faster. >>>>> "Eli" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: >> Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 18:43:34 -0700 From: "T. V. Raman" >> <raman@users.sf.net> Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, >> rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org >> >> The other advantage in doing what you suggest is that >> external packages can evolve more rapidly than Emacs. Eli> Eli> Why is that an advantage? -- Best Regards, --raman Email: raman@users.sf.net WWW: http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/ AIM: emacspeak GTalk: tv.raman.tv@gmail.com PGP: http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/raman-almaden.asc Google: tv+raman IRC: irc://irc.freenode.net/#emacs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Experimental features 2007-06-24 3:59 ` T. V. Raman @ 2007-06-24 18:42 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-06-24 18:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: raman; +Cc: raman, andreas.roehler, emacs-devel > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 20:59:21 -0700 > From: "T. V. Raman" <raman@users.sf.net> > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, andreas.roehler@online.de, raman@users.sourceforge.net > > That is an advantage because as we have seen with the transition > from emacs 21.4 to 22, it takes a *long* time for a major Emacs > version to come out --- and with good reason, since stability of > Emacs is important to all of us. That is a reason to make Emacs releases shorter, not to release packages separately. > But that also means that smaller packages will --- and *should* > be allowed to --- evolve faster. I don't quite see the logic of this conclusion. If Emacs must be stable, so do the packages that come with it. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Experimental features 2007-06-22 21:05 Experimental features Stefan Monnier ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2007-06-23 6:00 ` Andreas Röhler @ 2007-06-23 13:19 ` Richard Stallman 2007-06-23 13:37 ` Juanma Barranquero 2007-06-23 19:16 ` Stefan Monnier 3 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2007-06-23 13:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: emacs-devel I don't mind adding some new features to minor releases. We've already added some for Emacs 22.2. They should be totally modular, though, so that we know they are safe. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Experimental features 2007-06-23 13:19 ` Richard Stallman @ 2007-06-23 13:37 ` Juanma Barranquero 2007-06-24 14:40 ` Richard Stallman 2007-06-23 19:16 ` Stefan Monnier 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2007-06-23 13:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: emacs-devel On 6/23/07, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote: > I don't mind adding some new features to minor releases. > We've already added some for Emacs 22.2. > They should be totally modular, though, so that we > know they are safe. BTW, if the release of 22.2 isn't imminent, I'd like to offer Davis Herring's desktop locking feature for inclusion in 22.2 (it's already in the trunk). It's a small change (it seems bigger because a big bunch of code was factored out to a function, and also I changed a few one-armed `if's to `when's) and pretty safe. Juanma 2007-06-20 Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> * desktop.el (desktop-read): Run `desktop-not-loaded-hook' in the directory where the desktop file was found, as the docstring says. (desktop-kill): Use `read-directory-name'. 2007-06-12 Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> * desktop.el (desktop-load-locked-desktop): New option. (desktop-read): Use it. (desktop-truncate, desktop-outvar, desktop-restore-file-buffer): Use `when'. 2007-06-12 Davis Herring <herring@lanl.gov> * desktop.el (desktop-save-mode-off): New function. (desktop-base-lock-name, desktop-not-loaded-hook): New variables. (desktop-full-lock-name, desktop-file-modtime, desktop-owner) (desktop-claim-lock, desktop-release-lock): New functions. (desktop-kill): Tell `desktop-save' that this is the last save. Release the lock afterwards. (desktop-buffer-info): New function. (desktop-save): Use it. Run `desktop-save-hook' where the doc says to. Detect conflicts, and manage the lock. (desktop-read): Detect conflicts. Manage the lock. Index: lisp/desktop.el =================================================================== RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/lisp/desktop.el,v retrieving revision 1.108.2.1 diff -c -b -r1.108.2.1 desktop.el *** lisp/desktop.el 9 Jun 2007 00:10:38 -0000 1.108.2.1 --- lisp/desktop.el 23 Jun 2007 13:29:16 -0000 *************** *** 162,167 **** --- 162,171 ---- (define-obsolete-variable-alias 'desktop-enable 'desktop-save-mode "22.1") + (defun desktop-save-mode-off () + "Disable `desktop-save-mode'. Provided for use in hooks." + (desktop-save-mode 0)) + (defcustom desktop-save 'ask-if-new "*Specifies whether the desktop should be saved when it is killed. A desktop is killed when the user changes desktop or quits Emacs. *************** *** 186,191 **** --- 190,211 ---- :group 'desktop :version "22.1") + (defcustom desktop-load-locked-desktop 'ask + "Specifies whether the desktop should be loaded if locked. + Possible values are: + t -- load anyway. + nil -- don't load. + ask -- ask the user. + If the value is nil, or `ask' and the user chooses not to load the desktop, + the normal hook `desktop-not-loaded-hook' is run." + :type + '(choice + (const :tag "Load anyway" t) + (const :tag "Don't load" nil) + (const :tag "Ask the user" ask)) + :group 'desktop + :version "22.2") + (defcustom desktop-base-file-name (convert-standard-filename ".emacs.desktop") "Name of file for Emacs desktop, excluding the directory part." *************** *** 194,199 **** --- 214,226 ---- (define-obsolete-variable-alias 'desktop-basefilename 'desktop-base-file-name "22.1") + (defcustom desktop-base-lock-name + (convert-standard-filename ".emacs.desktop.lock") + "Name of lock file for Emacs desktop, excluding the directory part." + :type 'file + :group 'desktop + :version "22.2") + (defcustom desktop-path '("." "~") "List of directories to search for the desktop file. The base name of the file is specified in `desktop-base-file-name'." *************** *** 219,224 **** --- 246,260 ---- :group 'desktop :version "22.1") + (defcustom desktop-not-loaded-hook nil + "Normal hook run when the user declines to re-use a desktop file. + Run in the directory in which the desktop file was found. + May be used to deal with accidental multiple Emacs jobs." + :type 'hook + :group 'desktop + :options '(desktop-save-mode-off save-buffers-kill-emacs) + :version "22.2") + (defcustom desktop-after-read-hook nil "Normal hook run after a successful `desktop-read'. May be used to show a buffer list." *************** *** 486,491 **** --- 522,532 ---- DIRNAME omitted or nil means use `desktop-dirname'." (expand-file-name desktop-base-file-name (or dirname desktop-dirname))) + (defun desktop-full-lock-name (&optional dirname) + "Return the full name of the desktop lock file in DIRNAME. + DIRNAME omitted or nil means use `desktop-dirname'." + (expand-file-name desktop-base-lock-name (or dirname desktop-dirname))) + (defconst desktop-header ";; -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ;; Desktop File for Emacs *************** *** 496,505 **** "Hooks run after all buffers are loaded; intended for internal use.") ;; ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- (defun desktop-truncate (list n) "Truncate LIST to at most N elements destructively." (let ((here (nthcdr (1- n) list))) ! (if (consp here) (setcdr here nil)))) ;; ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- 537,579 ---- "Hooks run after all buffers are loaded; intended for internal use.") ;; ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- + ;; Desktop file conflict detection + (defvar desktop-file-modtime nil + "When the desktop file was last modified to the knowledge of this Emacs. + Used to detect desktop file conflicts.") + + (defun desktop-owner (&optional dirname) + "Return the PID of the Emacs process that owns the desktop file in DIRNAME. + Return nil if no desktop file found or no Emacs process is using it. + DIRNAME omitted or nil means use `desktop-dirname'." + (let (owner) + (and (file-exists-p (desktop-full-lock-name dirname)) + (condition-case nil + (with-temp-buffer + (insert-file-contents-literally (desktop-full-lock-name dirname)) + (goto-char (point-min)) + (setq owner (read (current-buffer))) + (integerp owner)) + (error nil)) + owner))) + + (defun desktop-claim-lock (&optional dirname) + "Record this Emacs process as the owner of the desktop file in DIRNAME. + DIRNAME omitted or nil means use `desktop-dirname'." + (write-region (number-to-string (emacs-pid)) nil + (desktop-full-lock-name dirname))) + + (defun desktop-release-lock (&optional dirname) + "Remove the lock file for the desktop in DIRNAME. + DIRNAME omitted or nil means use `desktop-dirname'." + (let ((file (desktop-full-lock-name dirname))) + (when (file-exists-p file) (delete-file file)))) + + ;; ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- (defun desktop-truncate (list n) "Truncate LIST to at most N elements destructively." (let ((here (nthcdr (1- n) list))) ! (when (consp here) (setcdr here nil)))) ;; ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- *************** *** 552,565 **** (setq desktop-dirname (file-name-as-directory (expand-file-name ! (call-interactively ! (lambda (dir) ! (interactive "DDirectory for desktop file: ") dir)))))) (condition-case err ! (desktop-save desktop-dirname) (file-error (unless (yes-or-no-p "Error while saving the desktop. Ignore? ") ! (signal (car err) (cdr err))))))) ;; ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- (defun desktop-list* (&rest args) --- 626,639 ---- (setq desktop-dirname (file-name-as-directory (expand-file-name ! (read-directory-name "Directory for desktop file: " nil nil t))))) (condition-case err ! (desktop-save desktop-dirname t) (file-error (unless (yes-or-no-p "Error while saving the desktop. Ignore? ") ! (signal (car err) (cdr err)))))) ! ;; If we own it, we don't anymore. ! (when (eq (emacs-pid) (desktop-owner)) (desktop-release-lock))) ;; ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- (defun desktop-list* (&rest args) *************** *** 574,579 **** --- 648,693 ---- value))) ;; ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- + (defun desktop-buffer-info (buffer) + (set-buffer buffer) + (list + ;; basic information + (desktop-file-name (buffer-file-name) dirname) + (buffer-name) + major-mode + ;; minor modes + (let (ret) + (mapc + #'(lambda (minor-mode) + (and (boundp minor-mode) + (symbol-value minor-mode) + (let* ((special (assq minor-mode desktop-minor-mode-table)) + (value (cond (special (cadr special)) + ((functionp minor-mode) minor-mode)))) + (when value (add-to-list 'ret value))))) + (mapcar #'car minor-mode-alist)) + ret) + ;; point and mark, and read-only status + (point) + (list (mark t) mark-active) + buffer-read-only + ;; auxiliary information + (when (functionp desktop-save-buffer) + (funcall desktop-save-buffer dirname)) + ;; local variables + (let ((locals desktop-locals-to-save) + (loclist (buffer-local-variables)) + (ll)) + (while locals + (let ((here (assq (car locals) loclist))) + (if here + (setq ll (cons here ll)) + (when (member (car locals) loclist) + (setq ll (cons (car locals) ll))))) + (setq locals (cdr locals))) + ll))) + + ;; ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- (defun desktop-internal-v2s (value) "Convert VALUE to a pair (QUOTE . TXT); (eval (read TXT)) gives VALUE. TXT is a string that when read and evaluated yields value. *************** *** 676,684 **** (if (consp varspec) (setq var (car varspec) size (cdr varspec)) (setq var varspec)) ! (if (boundp var) ! (progn ! (if (and (integerp size) (> size 0) (listp (eval var))) (desktop-truncate (eval var) size)) --- 790,797 ---- (if (consp varspec) (setq var (car varspec) size (cdr varspec)) (setq var varspec)) ! (when (boundp var) ! (when (and (integerp size) (> size 0) (listp (eval var))) (desktop-truncate (eval var) size)) *************** *** 686,692 **** (symbol-name var) " " (desktop-value-to-string (symbol-value var)) ! ")\n"))))) ;; ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- (defun desktop-save-buffer-p (filename bufname mode &rest dummy) --- 799,805 ---- (symbol-name var) " " (desktop-value-to-string (symbol-value var)) ! ")\n")))) ;; ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- (defun desktop-save-buffer-p (filename bufname mode &rest dummy) *************** *** 724,802 **** ;; ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ;;;###autoload ! (defun desktop-save (dirname) "Save the desktop in a desktop file. Parameter DIRNAME specifies where to save the desktop file. See also `desktop-base-file-name'." (interactive "DDirectory to save desktop file in: ") ! (run-hooks 'desktop-save-hook) ! (setq dirname (file-name-as-directory (expand-file-name dirname))) (save-excursion ! (let ((filename (desktop-full-file-name dirname)) ! (info ! (mapcar ! #'(lambda (b) ! (set-buffer b) ! (list ! (desktop-file-name (buffer-file-name) dirname) ! (buffer-name) ! major-mode ! ;; minor modes ! (let (ret) ! (mapc ! #'(lambda (minor-mode) ! (and ! (boundp minor-mode) ! (symbol-value minor-mode) ! (let* ((special (assq minor-mode desktop-minor-mode-table)) ! (value (cond (special (cadr special)) ! ((functionp minor-mode) minor-mode)))) ! (when value (add-to-list 'ret value))))) ! (mapcar #'car minor-mode-alist)) ! ret) ! (point) ! (list (mark t) mark-active) ! buffer-read-only ! ;; Auxiliary information ! (when (functionp desktop-save-buffer) ! (funcall desktop-save-buffer dirname)) ! (let ((locals desktop-locals-to-save) ! (loclist (buffer-local-variables)) ! (ll)) ! (while locals ! (let ((here (assq (car locals) loclist))) ! (if here ! (setq ll (cons here ll)) ! (when (member (car locals) loclist) ! (setq ll (cons (car locals) ll))))) ! (setq locals (cdr locals))) ! ll))) ! (buffer-list))) ! (eager desktop-restore-eager)) (with-temp-buffer (insert ";; -*- mode: emacs-lisp; coding: emacs-mule; -*-\n" desktop-header ";; Created " (current-time-string) "\n" ";; Desktop file format version " desktop-file-version "\n" ! ";; Emacs version " emacs-version "\n\n" ! ";; Global section:\n") ! (dolist (varspec desktop-globals-to-save) ! (desktop-outvar varspec)) ! (if (memq 'kill-ring desktop-globals-to-save) (insert "(setq kill-ring-yank-pointer (nthcdr " (int-to-string (- (length kill-ring) (length kill-ring-yank-pointer))) " kill-ring))\n")) (insert "\n;; Buffer section -- buffers listed in same order as in buffer list:\n") ! (dolist (l info) (when (apply 'desktop-save-buffer-p l) (insert "(" (if (or (not (integerp eager)) ! (unless (zerop eager) ! (setq eager (1- eager)) ! t)) "desktop-create-buffer" "desktop-append-buffer-args") " " --- 837,893 ---- ;; ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ;;;###autoload ! (defun desktop-save (dirname &optional release) "Save the desktop in a desktop file. Parameter DIRNAME specifies where to save the desktop file. + Optional parameter RELEASE says whether we're done with this desktop. See also `desktop-base-file-name'." (interactive "DDirectory to save desktop file in: ") ! (setq desktop-dirname (file-name-as-directory (expand-file-name dirname))) (save-excursion ! (let ((eager desktop-restore-eager) ! (new-modtime (nth 5 (file-attributes (desktop-full-file-name))))) ! (when ! (or (not new-modtime) ; nothing to overwrite ! (equal desktop-file-modtime new-modtime) ! (yes-or-no-p (if desktop-file-modtime ! (if (> (float-time new-modtime) (float-time desktop-file-modtime)) ! "Desktop file is more recent than the one loaded. Save anyway? " ! "Desktop file isn't the one loaded. Overwrite it? ") ! "Current desktop was not loaded from a file. Overwrite this desktop file? ")) ! (unless release (error "Desktop file conflict"))) ! ! ;; If we're done with it, release the lock. ! ;; Otherwise, claim it if it's unclaimed or if we created it. ! (if release ! (desktop-release-lock) ! (unless (and new-modtime (desktop-owner)) (desktop-claim-lock))) ! (with-temp-buffer (insert ";; -*- mode: emacs-lisp; coding: emacs-mule; -*-\n" desktop-header ";; Created " (current-time-string) "\n" ";; Desktop file format version " desktop-file-version "\n" ! ";; Emacs version " emacs-version "\n") ! (save-excursion (run-hooks 'desktop-save-hook)) ! (goto-char (point-max)) ! (insert "\n;; Global section:\n") ! (mapc (function desktop-outvar) desktop-globals-to-save) ! (when (memq 'kill-ring desktop-globals-to-save) (insert "(setq kill-ring-yank-pointer (nthcdr " (int-to-string (- (length kill-ring) (length kill-ring-yank-pointer))) " kill-ring))\n")) (insert "\n;; Buffer section -- buffers listed in same order as in buffer list:\n") ! (dolist (l (mapcar 'desktop-buffer-info (buffer-list))) (when (apply 'desktop-save-buffer-p l) (insert "(" (if (or (not (integerp eager)) ! (if (zerop eager) ! nil ! (setq eager (1- eager)))) "desktop-create-buffer" "desktop-append-buffer-args") " " *************** *** 804,813 **** (dolist (e l) (insert "\n " (desktop-value-to-string e))) (insert ")\n\n"))) (setq default-directory dirname) (let ((coding-system-for-write 'emacs-mule)) ! (write-region (point-min) (point-max) filename nil 'nomessage))))) ! (setq desktop-dirname dirname)) ;; ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ;;;###autoload --- 895,906 ---- (dolist (e l) (insert "\n " (desktop-value-to-string e))) (insert ")\n\n"))) + (setq default-directory dirname) (let ((coding-system-for-write 'emacs-mule)) ! (write-region (point-min) (point-max) (desktop-full-file-name) nil 'nomessage)) ! ;; We remember when it was modified (which is presumably just now). ! (setq desktop-file-modtime (nth 5 (file-attributes (desktop-full-file-name))))))))) ;; ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ;;;###autoload *************** *** 856,873 **** ;; Default: Home directory. "~")))) (if (file-exists-p (desktop-full-file-name)) ! ;; Desktop file found, process it. (let ((desktop-first-buffer nil) (desktop-buffer-ok-count 0) (desktop-buffer-fail-count 0) ;; Avoid desktop saving during evaluation of desktop buffer. (desktop-save nil)) (desktop-lazy-abort) ! ;; Evaluate desktop buffer. (load (desktop-full-file-name) t t t) ;; `desktop-create-buffer' puts buffers at end of the buffer list. ! ;; We want buffers existing prior to evaluating the desktop (and not reused) ! ;; to be placed at the end of the buffer list, so we move them here. (mapc 'bury-buffer (nreverse (cdr (memq desktop-first-buffer (nreverse (buffer-list)))))) (switch-to-buffer (car (buffer-list))) --- 949,987 ---- ;; Default: Home directory. "~")))) (if (file-exists-p (desktop-full-file-name)) ! ;; Desktop file found, but is it already in use? (let ((desktop-first-buffer nil) (desktop-buffer-ok-count 0) (desktop-buffer-fail-count 0) + (owner (desktop-owner)) ;; Avoid desktop saving during evaluation of desktop buffer. (desktop-save nil)) + (if (and owner + (memq desktop-load-locked-desktop '(nil ask)) + (or (null desktop-load-locked-desktop) + (not (y-or-n-p (format "Warning: desktop file appears to be in use by PID %s.\n\ + Using it may cause conflicts. Use it anyway? " owner))))) + (progn + (let ((default-directory desktop-dirname)) + (run-hooks 'desktop-not-loaded-hook)) + (setq desktop-dirname nil) + (message "Desktop file in use; not loaded.")) (desktop-lazy-abort) ! ;; Evaluate desktop buffer and remember when it was modified. (load (desktop-full-file-name) t t t) + (setq desktop-file-modtime (nth 5 (file-attributes (desktop-full-file-name)))) + ;; If it wasn't already, mark it as in-use, to bother other + ;; desktop instances. + (unless owner + (condition-case nil + (desktop-claim-lock) + (file-error (message "Couldn't record use of desktop file") + (sit-for 1)))) + ;; `desktop-create-buffer' puts buffers at end of the buffer list. ! ;; We want buffers existing prior to evaluating the desktop (and ! ;; not reused) to be placed at the end of the buffer list, so we ! ;; move them here. (mapc 'bury-buffer (nreverse (cdr (memq desktop-first-buffer (nreverse (buffer-list)))))) (switch-to-buffer (car (buffer-list))) *************** *** 884,890 **** (format ", %d to restore lazily" (length desktop-buffer-args-list)) "")) ! t) ;; No desktop file found. (desktop-clear) (let ((default-directory desktop-dirname)) --- 998,1004 ---- (format ", %d to restore lazily" (length desktop-buffer-args-list)) "")) ! t)) ;; No desktop file found. (desktop-clear) (let ((default-directory desktop-dirname)) *************** *** 946,952 **** desktop-buffer-name desktop-buffer-misc) "Restore a file buffer." ! (if desktop-buffer-file-name (if (or (file-exists-p desktop-buffer-file-name) (let ((msg (format "Desktop: File \"%s\" no longer exists." desktop-buffer-file-name))) --- 1060,1066 ---- desktop-buffer-name desktop-buffer-misc) "Restore a file buffer." ! (when desktop-buffer-file-name (if (or (file-exists-p desktop-buffer-file-name) (let ((msg (format "Desktop: File \"%s\" no longer exists." desktop-buffer-file-name))) *************** *** 1067,1073 **** (setq mark-active (car (cdr desktop-buffer-mark)))) (set-mark desktop-buffer-mark))) ;; Never override file system if the file really is read-only marked. ! (if desktop-buffer-read-only (setq buffer-read-only desktop-buffer-read-only)) (while desktop-buffer-locals (let ((this (car desktop-buffer-locals))) (if (consp this) --- 1181,1187 ---- (setq mark-active (car (cdr desktop-buffer-mark)))) (set-mark desktop-buffer-mark))) ;; Never override file system if the file really is read-only marked. ! (when desktop-buffer-read-only (setq buffer-read-only desktop-buffer-read-only)) (while desktop-buffer-locals (let ((this (car desktop-buffer-locals))) (if (consp this) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Experimental features 2007-06-23 13:37 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2007-06-24 14:40 ` Richard Stallman 2007-06-24 14:53 ` Juanma Barranquero 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2007-06-24 14:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Juanma Barranquero; +Cc: emacs-devel BTW, if the release of 22.2 isn't imminent, I'd like to offer Davis Herring's desktop locking feature for inclusion in 22.2 (it's already in the trunk). If it has been used by several people in the trunk, and thus tested, then it is ok to put this in Emacs 22.2. Would you, please? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Experimental features 2007-06-24 14:40 ` Richard Stallman @ 2007-06-24 14:53 ` Juanma Barranquero 2007-06-24 19:25 ` Stefan Monnier 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2007-06-24 14:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: emacs-devel On 6/24/07, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote: > If it has been used by several people in the trunk, and thus > tested, then it is ok to put this in Emacs 22.2. There have been no problems so far. > Would you, please? If we're not going to roll 22.2 immediately, I'd like to wait. I don't expect any problem, but if one appears I prefer to fix it in one place instead of two :) Juanma ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Experimental features 2007-06-24 14:53 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2007-06-24 19:25 ` Stefan Monnier 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2007-06-24 19:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Juanma Barranquero; +Cc: rms, emacs-devel >> If it has been used by several people in the trunk, and thus >> tested, then it is ok to put this in Emacs 22.2. > There have been no problems so far. >> Would you, please? > If we're not going to roll 22.2 immediately, I'd like to wait. I don't > expect any problem, but if one appears I prefer to fix it in one place > instead of two :) The release branch is regularly merged back into the trunk (when Miles isn't on vacation, that is ;-), so there's still only one place to fix it: on the release branch. Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Experimental features 2007-06-23 13:19 ` Richard Stallman 2007-06-23 13:37 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2007-06-23 19:16 ` Stefan Monnier 2007-06-24 14:41 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2007-06-23 19:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: emacs-devel > I don't mind adding some new features to minor releases. I know, but I think for example that the vc-bzr.el and vc-hg.el (and potentially others, I hope we'll get vc-darcs.el soon) are somewhat dangerous to add to Emacs-22.[23...] unless we disable them by default: they're not 100% modular since they normally get involved every time we open a file (in 99% of the cases they'll just bail saying that they're not interested in this file, but still). So just like we have obsolete features, we could have experimental features, which are completely deactivated by default but can easily be activated by the user. This might allow us to safely include a few more new features in minor releases. > We've already added some for Emacs 22.2. They should be totally modular, > though, so that we know they are safe. I'll send a patch soon, to give a more concrete idea of my I'm thinking of. Basically, I currently picture it as adding something like a function (activate-experimental-feature <feature>). And this `activate-experimental-feature' would simply check for a function `activate-experimental-feature-<feature>' and call it if it exists (and otherwise do nothing). Additionally, we would add a file-local variable "experimental-feature" to Elisp files which would cause `autoload.el' to wrap all the autoloads of this file into a function called `activate-experimental-feature-<feature>'. Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Experimental features 2007-06-23 19:16 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2007-06-24 14:41 ` Richard Stallman 2007-06-24 19:23 ` Stefan Monnier 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2007-06-24 14:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: emacs-devel I know, but I think for example that the vc-bzr.el and vc-hg.el (and potentially others, I hope we'll get vc-darcs.el soon) are somewhat dangerous to add to Emacs-22.[23...] unless we disable them by default: they're not 100% modular since they normally get involved every time we open a file (in 99% of the cases they'll just bail saying that they're not interested in this file, but still). So just like we have obsolete features, we could have experimental features, which are completely deactivated by default but can easily be activated by the user. This might allow us to safely include a few more new features in minor releases. I see the point; maybe so. I'll send a patch soon, to give a more concrete idea of my I'm thinking of. Basically, I currently picture it as adding something like a function (activate-experimental-feature <feature>). What is the benefit of this, over having a simple variable to control it? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Experimental features 2007-06-24 14:41 ` Richard Stallman @ 2007-06-24 19:23 ` Stefan Monnier 2007-06-24 23:47 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2007-06-24 19:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: emacs-devel > I know, but I think for example that the vc-bzr.el and vc-hg.el (and > potentially others, I hope we'll get vc-darcs.el soon) are somewhat > dangerous to add to Emacs-22.[23...] unless we disable them by > default: they're not 100% modular since they normally get involved > every time we open a file (in 99% of the cases they'll just bail > saying that they're not interested in this file, but still). > So just like we have obsolete features, we could have experimental > features, which are completely deactivated by default but can easily > be activated by the user. This might allow us to safely include a few > more new features in minor releases. > I see the point; maybe so. > I'll send a patch soon, to give a more concrete idea of my I'm > thinking of. Basically, I currently picture it as adding something > like a function (activate-experimental-feature <feature>). > What is the benefit of this, over having a simple variable to control it? There are a few issues: 1 - sometimes a single `setq' is not enough to activate a feature. 2 - I like the idea of being able to list the experimental features. Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Experimental features 2007-06-24 19:23 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2007-06-24 23:47 ` Richard Stallman 2007-06-28 18:51 ` Stefan Monnier 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2007-06-24 23:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: emacs-devel 1 - sometimes a single `setq' is not enough to activate a feature. That is true, but I don't see that this means we need a special framework for these features. 2 - I like the idea of being able to list the experimental features. I think NEWS is good enough for that. I think that making a feature experimental is really a matter for us, the developers. If a feature is a self-contained major mode, and certainly won't affect anyone that doesn't enable that mode, that is automatically safe to try installing. So we can just install it with nothing special. But if feature involves adding code in some existing files, files which have other purposes and uses, that added code might break something. So we might want to add an explicit conditional around each piece of code added in other files, so that we KNOW this feature can't break anything if you don't enable it. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Experimental features 2007-06-24 23:47 ` Richard Stallman @ 2007-06-28 18:51 ` Stefan Monnier 2007-06-29 19:33 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2007-06-28 18:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: emacs-devel > 1 - sometimes a single `setq' is not enough to activate a feature. > That is true, but I don't see that this means we need a special > framework for these features. There's no special framework involved. Just a convention for how to call the activation function. > 2 - I like the idea of being able to list the experimental features. > I think NEWS is good enough for that. I agree that it's not absolutely important to be able to get a mechanically-generated list, but it's a good thing. And since its only cost is to use a standard naming convention for the activation function, it seems very much worth it. > If a feature is a self-contained major mode, and certainly won't affect > anyone that doesn't enable that mode, that is automatically safe to try > installing. So we can just install it with nothing special. Sure, there are such cases. E.g. css-mode. I'm not interested in those cases here, since we already know how to handle them. > But if feature involves adding code in some existing files, files > which have other purposes and uses, that added code might break > something. So we might want to add an explicit conditional around > each piece of code added in other files, so that we KNOW this feature > can't break anything if you don't enable it. Or if css-mode did something potentially undesirable in its major-mode function, in which case enabling it by default for *.css files may not be desirable either. A sample patch is attached, which shows the command I'd like to add, the change to autoload.el to make it more easily accessible, and an example of how it might be used with vc-bzr. Stefan Index: lisp/emacs-lisp/autoload.el =================================================================== RCS file: /sources/emacs/emacs/lisp/emacs-lisp/autoload.el,v retrieving revision 1.126 diff -u -r1.126 autoload.el --- lisp/emacs-lisp/autoload.el 26 Jun 2007 19:53:11 -0000 1.126 +++ lisp/emacs-lisp/autoload.el 28 Jun 2007 18:49:15 -0000 @@ -305,6 +305,12 @@ (interactive "fGenerate autoloads for file: ") (autoload-generate-file-autoloads file (current-buffer))) +(defvar experimental-feature nil + "File-local variable indicating that this package is experimental. +Experimental packages need to be explicitly activated by calling +activate-experimental-PACKAGE.") +(put 'experimental-feature 'safe-local-variable 'booleanp) + ;; When called from `generate-file-autoloads' we should ignore ;; `generated-autoload-file' altogether. When called from ;; `update-file-autoloads' we don't know `outbuf'. And when called from @@ -409,6 +409,8 @@ (forward-line 1)))))) (when output-start + (let ((experimental (and (local-variable-p 'experimental-feature) + experimental-feature))) (with-current-buffer outbuf (save-excursion ;; Insert the section-header line which lists the file name @@ -417,8 +419,11 @@ (autoload-insert-section-header outbuf autoloads-done load-name relfile (nth 5 (file-attributes relfile))) - (insert ";;; Generated autoloads from " relfile "\n")) - (insert generate-autoload-section-trailer))) + (insert ";;; Generated autoloads from " relfile "\n") + (when experimental + (insert "(defun activate-experimental-" load-name " ()\n"))) + (when experimental (insert ")\n")) + (insert generate-autoload-section-trailer)))) (message "Generating autoloads for %s...done" file)) (or visited ;; We created this buffer, so we should kill it. Index: lisp/simple.el =================================================================== RCS file: /sources/emacs/emacs/lisp/simple.el,v retrieving revision 1.863 diff -u -r1.863 simple.el --- lisp/simple.el 23 Jun 2007 12:18:52 -0000 1.863 +++ lisp/simple.el 28 Jun 2007 18:49:15 -0000 @@ -5596,6 +5596,30 @@ buffer-invisibility-spec) (setq buffer-invisibility-spec nil))) \f + +(defconst activate-experimental-prefix "activate-experimental-") +(defun activate-experimental-feature (feature) + "Activate the feature FEATURE which is considered experimental." + (interactive + (let ((features + (delete "feature" + (mapcar (lambda (str) + (substring + str (length activate-experimental-prefix))) + (all-completions activate-experimental-prefix + obarray 'fboundp))))) + (if (null features) + (error "No experimental features in this release") + (list (completing-read "Feature: " features))))) + (let ((f (intern-soft (concat activate-experimental-prefix + (if (symbolp feature) + (symbol-name feature) + feature))))) + ;; If the function is not defined, assume this used to be an + ;; experimental feature but has now been blessed as a fully supported + ;; feature, so there's nothing left to do to activate it. + (when (fboundp f) (funcall f)))) + ;; Minibuffer prompt stuff. ;(defun minibuffer-prompt-modification (start end) Index: lisp/vc-bzr.el =================================================================== RCS file: /sources/emacs/emacs/lisp/vc-bzr.el,v retrieving revision 1.7 diff -u -r1.7 vc-bzr.el --- lisp/vc-bzr.el 28 Jun 2007 02:01:54 -0000 1.7 +++ lisp/vc-bzr.el 28 Jun 2007 18:49:15 -0000 @@ -549,5 +549,10 @@ (remove-hook 'vc-post-command-functions 'vc-bzr-post-command-function))) (provide 'vc-bzr) + +;; Local Variables: +;; experimental-feature: t +;; End: + ;; arch-tag: 8101bad8-4e92-4e7d-85ae-d8e08b4e7c06 ;;; vc-bzr.el ends here ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Experimental features 2007-06-28 18:51 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2007-06-29 19:33 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2007-06-29 19:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: emacs-devel > 1 - sometimes a single `setq' is not enough to activate a feature. > That is true, but I don't see that this means we need a special > framework for these features. There's no special framework involved. Just a convention for how to call the activation function. I do not see that we need a special framework for these features merely because they are "experimental". It just seems superfluous. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2007-06-29 19:33 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 22+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2007-06-22 21:05 Experimental features Stefan Monnier 2007-06-22 21:22 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail) 2007-06-23 4:15 ` Stefan Monnier 2007-06-23 12:40 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen 2007-06-23 19:07 ` Stefan Monnier 2007-06-23 2:51 ` dhruva 2007-06-23 6:00 ` Andreas Röhler 2007-06-24 1:43 ` T. V. Raman 2007-06-24 3:02 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-06-24 3:59 ` T. V. Raman 2007-06-24 18:42 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-06-23 13:19 ` Richard Stallman 2007-06-23 13:37 ` Juanma Barranquero 2007-06-24 14:40 ` Richard Stallman 2007-06-24 14:53 ` Juanma Barranquero 2007-06-24 19:25 ` Stefan Monnier 2007-06-23 19:16 ` Stefan Monnier 2007-06-24 14:41 ` Richard Stallman 2007-06-24 19:23 ` Stefan Monnier 2007-06-24 23:47 ` Richard Stallman 2007-06-28 18:51 ` Stefan Monnier 2007-06-29 19:33 ` Richard Stallman
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