From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Info tutorial is out of date Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 01:54:39 -0400 Message-ID: References: <87r70l2xza.fsf@vh213602.truman.edu> <200607170354.k6H3slOj025701@jane.dms.auburn.edu> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1153115702 25100 80.91.229.2 (17 Jul 2006 05:55:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 05:55:02 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, belanger@truman.edu, karl@freefriends.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 17 07:54:59 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2M4G-0006od-Ai for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 07:54:56 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2M4F-0007uC-Pv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 01:54:55 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2M42-0007qe-3u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 01:54:42 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2M40-0007ne-Li for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 01:54:40 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2M40-0007nX-Fz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 01:54:40 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.164] (helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1G2M6b-0007M7-Ni for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 01:57:21 -0400 Original-Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1G2M3z-0006hB-SQ; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 01:54:39 -0400 Original-To: Luc Teirlinck In-reply-to: <200607170354.k6H3slOj025701@jane.dms.auburn.edu> (message from Luc Teirlinck on Sun, 16 Jul 2006 22:54:47 -0500 (CDT)) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:57158 Archived-At: > Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 22:54:47 -0500 (CDT) > From: Luc Teirlinck > Cc: karl@freefriends.org, belanger@truman.edu, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > [this thread] seems to be obviously about the Info manual, not about > the Emacs manual. Yes. > The Info manual tries to teach the user how to use the Info system, > not how to use Emacs. Correct. > Unless there has been a policy change, Info is meant to replace the > man pages in the GNU system. That is, people would do `info find' > instead of `man find' from a command line. This brings up the > standalone Info reader and should be usable by GNU users who use, > say, vim as their editor and do not even know how to use Emacs. Right. (Except that one could set up their system so that "info FOO" shows the related document in Emacs, not in the stand-alone reader. But the default is certainly as you describe.) > `h' brings up the Info manual not just in Emacs Info, but also in the > standalone Info reader. Yes. > Of course, it must tell people how to use the standalone Info reader Only the bare basics, because the more advanced features of the stand-alone Info reader are documented in a separate manual, which describes the stand-alone reader, and it alone. > Of course, Emacs users must also be able to learn how to use Emacs > Info. Emacs Info is too close to the standalone Info to justify two > separate manuals, especially since many people may want to learn how > to use both readers and we should not force them to read two manuals > most of whose contents just duplicate each other. 100% agreement. > The Info reader has no menu bar and no Emacs style header line. > Scroll bars and mice do not seem to work with it. The current Info manual tries (sometimes very hard) to strike the right balance between the handy GUI features available in Emacs and the total lack thereof in the stand-alone reader. It is quite possible that the manual can be improved, but I'd rather see a concrete proposal (in the form of patches or even a total rewrite) than hear more of the endless discussions in this thread about the relative merits and demerits of using the mouse and the tool bar. Would someone who thinks they know how to make the Info manual less ``out of date'' please submit their proposed changes, so we could make this discussion more practical? TIA