From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Info tutorial is out of date Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 02:25:33 -0400 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: rms@gnu.org NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1153031306 22104 80.91.229.2 (16 Jul 2006 06:28:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 06:28:26 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 16 08:28:25 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2070-0004r0-0F for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 08:28:18 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G206z-0008H8-Fp for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 02:28:17 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G204N-0006PU-EM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 02:25:35 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G204M-0006OR-KR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 02:25:34 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G204M-0006OD-5H for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 02:25:34 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.164] (helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1G206j-0003E5-OQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 02:28:01 -0400 Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1G204L-00027h-DO; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 02:25:33 -0400 Original-To: "Drew Adams" In-reply-to: X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:57077 Archived-At: I don't even see why `C-l' is mentioned anymore, especially at the very beginning of the tutorial. It was important back when 14K baud was a fast transmission speed and your screen got "garbaged" (to quote the tutorial) from time to time. You needed to learn `C-l' at the beginning, because if your screen got garbled then you were lost in the tutorial - that was a game in itself (much more interesting than invisible text). `C-l' is just a vestige of the bad-ole-days - lose it. I agree. With absolutely no instruction, a user will figure out immediately how to move among nodes - the equivalent of `n', `p', `u', and `m', because they *see* the corresponding links and buttons. Clicking links and buttons is a fine way to get around, to get the info you need - at least in the beginning. Teaching `n' and `p' does not need to take up the first several minutes of the tutorial - it should be presented much later, perhaps in a (brief) lesson on keyboard shortcuts. That seems plausible to try. The first thing the tutorial should do is take a tour of the menu-bar menu - that is, those menu items that are the most important. This is also the opportunity to point out the key bindings indicated in the menu. That is the way to introduce the shortcuts `i', `s', and `l', for instance - in passing. The menu bar is no more convenient or clear than keys. BTW, the help text (tooltip) for the search toolbar icon should not scare people away by mentioning regular expressions. It should say simply `Search the manual'. If you don't think that's enough, then it could say `Search the manual (regexp is OK)'. That is ok. None of the tooltips should use the word "file" - they should say "manual". It would ok. I'll say one more time, in passing, that an icon for deletion (X) should not be used for quitting Info - that is a bad idea. Several other possibilities were suggested previously (e.g. the international icon for an exit: arrow exiting a room), and there are lots of quit icons to choose from. But that particular X is often used for deletion, a confusion we don't want here. I agree. The Info tutorial itself should be accessible (listed) in the menu of the first node of the Info manual. Instead, it is only mentioned in the text of that node, in terms of `h'. I don't see the reason for this. Once a person is looking at the Info manual, he doesn't need the tutorial any more. And he can still get to it in the usual way. Before entering the tutorial, we should tell users how to exit it, to get back where they were. I don't quite follow. BTW, `h' should not bring up the tutorial, it should display a mini-version of what `C-h m' shows: a short list of the main key bindings - about the same as what's in the menu-bar menu, but with some explanation. There is no need to have a key binding just to bring up the Info tutorial - people won't be doing that 30 times a day. I see your point, but at the same time, people using Info may not grasp the idea of two-character commands. The node `Invisible text in Emacs Info' is incomprehensible to me ("invisible text is really a part of the text"!?). Yow! Why are we telling users about killing and yanking Info text? (I guess printing is OK.) Why is this near the beginning of the tutorial? I really, really do not get this. I agree -- why teach people about this in the tutorial? Does anyone think this is desirable? In general, instead of introducing so many key bindings (e.g. `]'), the tutorial should spend the user's time taking a tour of Info *functionality*. Touring the menu-bar menu is a good way to explore the main functionalities: show what's there and what it does. In addition to the features in the menu-bar menu, teach SPC and DEL - that's about it. Other commands such as ] are also functionality. They are a little more advanced, as functionality goes, so perhaps they should come later.