From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Info tutorial is out of date Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 02:25:27 -0400 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: rms@gnu.org NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1153031205 21955 80.91.229.2 (16 Jul 2006 06:26:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 06:26:45 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 16 08:26:44 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G205T-0004il-Kk for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 08:26:43 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G205T-00079t-4O for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 02:26:43 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G204I-0006Ky-5P for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 02:25:30 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G204H-0006KE-4l for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 02:25:29 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G204G-0006K4-PP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 02:25:28 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.164] (helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1G206e-0003DL-Cx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 02:27:56 -0400 Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1G204F-000271-V5; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 02:25:28 -0400 Original-To: "Drew Adams" In-reply-to: X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:57074 Archived-At: If you want, the tutorial could be split in two: first "What Info Is" (with simple how-to, to get the points across), second "How To Use Info Efficiently". That is a good idea, in a general sense. However, I am not sure it is really necessary, for the reason below. My point is this: first things first. If I don't understand what Info is all about, why would I go through the effort of learning and practicing its key bindings? Isn't it obvious to everyone what Info is all about? It's all about browsing documentation files. Menus, and moving up, moving thru a series using next and previous, are going to be obvious to anyone that has used the WWW very much. Thus, practically speaking, I think there isn't much to be achieved by having a separate easier section which just teaches you "what Info is all about". I also mentioned the need to have specific tutorial instruction for those keys (e.g. SPC and DEL) that are *not* so obvious. Teaching `n' right away is a waste of time, not because `n' is useless, but because there is an obvious (if perhaps somewhat slower) way to do the same thing. That might be a good point. As to the fingers-leaving-the-keyboard argument: That is not such a strong argument for Info, where people are reading, not editing. I agree, that is not a crucial issue for Info. 1) teach what Info is about, first; 2) start using the obvious how-to (e.g. links, buttons, menu-bar), to teach #1; 3) teach the non-obvious how-to (e.g. SPC, DEL) also; Those three are an idea worth trying. I have doubts that this would be much easier, but there's no harm in trying it out, and maybe the results would be good. 4) don't bother teaching the obvious, if more-efficient, how-to (e.g. `n'), except possibly as an efficiency booster, after getting the real message across. We definitely should teach these commands later on. The reason for focusing on n and p rather than SPC and DEL is partly historical. Originally, SPC and DEL only moved within a node.