info.texi

info.texi

[Richard Stallman]

Would someone please take on the task of updating info.texi?

Re: info.texi

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:47:13 -0400
> 
> Would someone please take on the task of updating info.texi?

Could you tell what needs updating there, or point to a discussion or
a document that says that?

Re: info.texi

[Juri Linkov]

>> Would someone please take on the task of updating info.texi?
>
> Could you tell what needs updating there, or point to a discussion
> or a document that says that?

Look at http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2004-06/msg00805.html
where I hinted at taking care of updating Info manual after finishing
all changes?

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: info.texi

[Richard Stallman]

    > Would someone please take on the task of updating info.texi?

    Could you tell what needs updating there, or point to a discussion or
    a document that says that?

Figuring out what, if anything, needs updating is part of this job.
I do not know.

info.texi

[Juri Linkov]

Since updating info.texi is one of the tasks needed to be finished for
the next Emacs release, I took on this task, fixed mistakes in the
existing manual and documented new features.  Please look at the
resulted patch below.

PS: I also have a proposal on a better node partition in info.texi,
but I will send a separate patch, because after moving Info nodes
up and down, small changes will not be visible in the diff.

Index: man/info.texi
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/man/info.texi,v
retrieving revision 1.45
diff -c -r1.45 info.texi
*** man/info.texi	23 Jun 2005 01:17:30 -0000	1.45
--- man/info.texi	4 Aug 2005 00:05:57 -0000
***************
*** 14,21 ****
  This file describes how to use Info, the on-line, menu-driven GNU
  documentation system.
  
! Copyright (C) 1989, 1992, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004
! Free Software Foundation, Inc.
  
  @quotation
  Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document
--- 14,21 ----
  This file describes how to use Info, the on-line, menu-driven GNU
  documentation system.
  
! Copyright (C) 1989, 1992, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002,
! 2003, 2004, 2005 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
  
  @quotation
  Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document
***************
*** 238,244 ****
  (look at it now) says that the @samp{Next} node after this one is the
  node called @samp{Help-P}.  An advanced Info command lets you go to
  any node whose name you know.  In the stand-alone Info reader program,
! the header line shows the names of this node and the info file as
  well.  In Emacs, the header line is duplicated in a special typeface,
  and the duplicate remains at the top of the window all the time even
  if you scroll through the node.
--- 238,244 ----
  (look at it now) says that the @samp{Next} node after this one is the
  node called @samp{Help-P}.  An advanced Info command lets you go to
  any node whose name you know.  In the stand-alone Info reader program,
! the header line shows the names of this node and the Info file as
  well.  In Emacs, the header line is duplicated in a special typeface,
  and the duplicate remains at the top of the window all the time even
  if you scroll through the node.
***************
*** 284,290 ****
    If you read this in Emacs, you will see an @samp{Info} item in the
  menu bar, close to its right edge.  Clicking the mouse on the
  @samp{Info} menu-bar item opens a menu of commands which include
! @samp{Next} and @samp{Prev} (and also some others which you didn't yet
  learn about).
  
    This all probably seems insultingly simple so far, but @emph{please
--- 284,290 ----
    If you read this in Emacs, you will see an @samp{Info} item in the
  menu bar, close to its right edge.  Clicking the mouse on the
  @samp{Info} menu-bar item opens a menu of commands which include
! @samp{Next} and @samp{Previous} (and also some others which you didn't yet
  learn about).
  
    This all probably seems insultingly simple so far, but @emph{please
***************
*** 674,680 ****
  next subtopic line.  To move to a previous subtopic line, type
  @kbd{M-@key{TAB}}---that is, press and hold the @key{META} key and then
  press @key{TAB}.  (On some keyboards, the @key{META} key might be labeled
! @samp{Alt}.)
  
    Once you move cursor to a subtopic line, press @key{RET} to go to
  that subtopic's node.
--- 674,683 ----
  next subtopic line.  To move to a previous subtopic line, type
  @kbd{M-@key{TAB}}---that is, press and hold the @key{META} key and then
  press @key{TAB}.  (On some keyboards, the @key{META} key might be labeled
! @samp{Alt}.)  On window systems, which intercept @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} key
! combination (usually for switching between windows), you can use
! @kbd{S-@key{TAB}} to move to a previous subtopic line (press and hold
! the @key{Shift} key and then press @key{TAB}).
  
    Once you move cursor to a subtopic line, press @key{RET} to go to
  that subtopic's node.
***************
*** 727,733 ****
  @code{Info-up}).  That puts you at the @emph{front} of the node---to
  get back to where you were reading you have to type some @key{SPC}s.
  (Some Info readers, such as the one built into Emacs, put you at the
! same place where you were reading in @samp{Help-M}.)
  
    Another way to go Up is to click @kbd{Mouse-2} on the @samp{Up}
  pointer shown in the header line (provided that you have a mouse).
--- 730,737 ----
  @code{Info-up}).  That puts you at the @emph{front} of the node---to
  get back to where you were reading you have to type some @key{SPC}s.
  (Some Info readers, such as the one built into Emacs, put you at the
! menu subtopic line which points to the subnode you came from via the
! @kbd{u} command.)
  
    Another way to go Up is to click @kbd{Mouse-2} on the @samp{Up}
  pointer shown in the header line (provided that you have a mouse).
***************
*** 785,792 ****
     type a @kbd{Control-g} and see how the @samp{f} gives up.
  @end format
  
!   The @key{TAB} and @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} key, which move between menu
! items in a menu, also move between cross references outside of menus.
  
    Sometimes a cross reference (or a node) can lead to another file (in
  other words another ``manual''), or, on occasion, even a file on a
--- 789,802 ----
     type a @kbd{Control-g} and see how the @samp{f} gives up.
  @end format
  
!   The @key{TAB} and @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} (or @kbd{S-@key{TAB}}) keys,
! which move between menu items in a menu, also move between cross
! references outside of menus.
! 
!   Clicking @kbd{Mouse-2} on or near a cross reference also follows the
! reference.  You can see that the cross reference is mouse-sensitive by
! moving the mouse pointer to the reference and watching how the
! underlying text and the mouse pointer change in response.
  
    Sometimes a cross reference (or a node) can lead to another file (in
  other words another ``manual''), or, on occasion, even a file on a
***************
*** 795,830 ****
  looks like this: @xref{Top,, Overview of Texinfo, texinfo, Texinfo:
  The GNU Documentation Format}.  (After following this link, type
  @kbd{l} to get back to this node.)  Here the name @samp{texinfo}
! between parentheses (shown in the stand-alone version) refers to the
! file name.  This file name appears in cross references and node names
! if it differs from the current file.  In Emacs, the file name is
! hidden (along with other text).  (Use @kbd{M-x visible-mode} to show
! or hide it.)
! 
!   The remainder of this node applies only to the Emacs version.  If
! you use the stand-alone version, you can type @kbd{n} immediately.
! 
!   To some users, switching manuals is a much bigger switch than
! switching sections.  These users like to know that they are going to
! be switching to another manual (and which one) before actually doing
! so, especially given that, if one does not notice, Info commands like
! @kbd{t} (see the next node) can have confusing results.
! 
!   If you put your mouse over the cross reference and if the cross
! reference leads to a different manual, then the information appearing
! in a separate box (tool tip) or in the echo area, will mention the
! file the cross reference will carry you to (between parentheses).
! This is also true for menu subtopic names.  If you have a mouse, just
! leave it over the @samp{Overview} cross reference above and watch what
! happens.
! 
!   If you always like to have that information available without having
! to move your mouse over the cross reference, set
! @code{Info-hide-note-references} to a value other than @code{t}
! (@pxref{Emacs Info Variables}).  You might also want to do that if you
! have a lot of cross references to files on remote machines and have
! non-permanent or slow access, since otherwise you might not be able to
! distinguish between local and remote links.
  
  @format
  >> Now type @kbd{n} to learn more commands.
--- 805,826 ----
  looks like this: @xref{Top,, Overview of Texinfo, texinfo, Texinfo:
  The GNU Documentation Format}.  (After following this link, type
  @kbd{l} to get back to this node.)  Here the name @samp{texinfo}
! between parentheses refers to the file name.  This file name appears
! in cross references and node names if it differs from the current
! file.
! 
! In Emacs, the file name is not hidden as well, so you can always know
! that you are going to be switching to another manual and which one.
! However, Emacs normally hides some other text in cross-references.
! If you put your mouse over the cross reference, then the information
! appearing in a separate box (tool tip) or in the echo area, will show
! the full cross-reference including the file name and the node name of
! the cross reference.  If you have a mouse, just leave it over the
! @samp{Overview} cross reference above and watch what happens.  If you
! always like to have that information visible without having to move
! your mouse over the cross reference, use @kbd{M-x visible-mode}, or
! set @code{Info-hide-note-references} to a value other than @code{t}
! (@pxref{Emacs Info Variables}).
  
  @format
  >> Now type @kbd{n} to learn more commands.
***************
*** 845,852 ****
  the start of the containing node.)
  
    You can get to the index from the main menu of the file with the
! @kbd{m} command; then you can use the @kbd{m} command again in the
! index node to go to the node that describes the topic you want.
  
    There is also a short-cut Info command, @kbd{i}, which does all of
  that for you.  It searches the index for a given topic (a string) and
--- 841,849 ----
  the start of the containing node.)
  
    You can get to the index from the main menu of the file with the
! @kbd{m} command and the name of the index node; then you can use the
! @kbd{m} command again in the index node to go to the node that
! describes the topic you want.
  
    There is also a short-cut Info command, @kbd{i}, which does all of
  that for you.  It searches the index for a given topic (a string) and
***************
*** 854,861 ****
  @xref{Info Search}, for a full explanation.
  
  @kindex l @r{(Info mode)}
! @findex Info-last
! @cindex going back in Info mode
    If you have been moving around to different nodes and wish to
  retrace your steps, the @kbd{l} command (@kbd{l} for @dfn{last}) will
  do that, one node-step at a time.  As you move from node to node, Info
--- 851,858 ----
  @xref{Info Search}, for a full explanation.
  
  @kindex l @r{(Info mode)}
! @findex Info-history-back
! @cindex going back in Info history
    If you have been moving around to different nodes and wish to
  retrace your steps, the @kbd{l} command (@kbd{l} for @dfn{last}) will
  do that, one node-step at a time.  As you move from node to node, Info
***************
*** 863,869 ****
  @kbd{l} command revisits nodes in the history list; each successive
  @kbd{l} command moves one step back through the history.
  
!   In Emacs, @kbd{l} runs the command @code{Info-last}.
  
  @format
  >> Try typing @kbd{p p n} and then three @kbd{l}'s, pausing in between
--- 860,866 ----
  @kbd{l} command revisits nodes in the history list; each successive
  @kbd{l} command moves one step back through the history.
  
!   In Emacs, @kbd{l} runs the command @code{Info-history-back}.
  
  @format
  >> Try typing @kbd{p p n} and then three @kbd{l}'s, pausing in between
***************
*** 875,880 ****
--- 872,884 ----
  which the header says is the @samp{Previous} node (from this node, the
  @samp{Prev} link leads to @samp{Help-Xref}).
  
+ @kindex r @r{(Info mode)}
+ @findex Info-history-forward
+ @cindex going forward in Info history
+   You can use the @kbd{r} command (@code{Info-history-forward} in Emacs)
+ to revisit nodes in the history list in the reverse direction, so that
+ @kbd{r} will return you to the node you came from by typing @kbd{l}.
+ 
  @kindex d @r{(Info mode)}
  @findex Info-directory
  @cindex go to Directory node
***************
*** 898,908 ****
  some specific top-level menu item.  The Emacs command run by @kbd{t}
  is @code{Info-top-node}.
  
-   Clicking @kbd{Mouse-2} on or near a cross reference also follows the
- reference.  You can see that the cross reference is mouse-sensitive by
- moving the mouse pointer to the reference and watching how the
- underlying text and the mouse pointer change in response.
- 
  @format
  >> Now type @kbd{n} to see the last node of the course.
  @end format
--- 902,907 ----
***************
*** 969,975 ****
  
    The node name @samp{*} specifies the whole file.  So you can look at
  all of the current file by typing @kbd{g*@key{RET}} or all of any
! other file with @kbd{g(@var{filename})@key{RET}}.
  
  @subheading @kbd{1}--@kbd{9} choose a menu subtopic by its number
  
--- 968,974 ----
  
    The node name @samp{*} specifies the whole file.  So you can look at
  all of the current file by typing @kbd{g*@key{RET}} or all of any
! other file with @kbd{g(@var{filename})*@key{RET}}.
  
  @subheading @kbd{1}--@kbd{9} choose a menu subtopic by its number
  
***************
*** 1017,1023 ****
  @findex clone-buffer
  @cindex multiple Info buffers
    If you are reading Info in Emacs, you can select a new independent
! Info buffer in another window by typing @kbd{M-n}.  The new buffer
  starts out as an exact copy of the old one, but you will be able to
  move independently between nodes in the two buffers.  (In Info mode,
  @kbd{M-n} runs the Emacs command @code{clone-buffer}.)
--- 1016,1022 ----
  @findex clone-buffer
  @cindex multiple Info buffers
    If you are reading Info in Emacs, you can select a new independent
! Info buffer in the same window by typing @kbd{M-n}.  The new buffer
  starts out as an exact copy of the old one, but you will be able to
  move independently between nodes in the two buffers.  (In Info mode,
  @kbd{M-n} runs the Emacs command @code{clone-buffer}.)
***************
*** 1028,1033 ****
--- 1027,1041 ----
  @kbd{m} and @kbd{g} do, but they do so in a new Info buffer which they
  select in another window.
  
+   Another way to produce new Info buffers in Emacs is to use a numeric
+ prefix argument for the @kbd{C-h i} command (@code{info}).
+ With a numeric argument, it selects an Info buffer with the number
+ appended to the default @samp{*info*} buffer name.  So @kbd{C-u 2 C-h
+ i} will select the buffer @samp{*info*<2>}.  If such a buffer doesn't
+ exist yet, it will create a new Info buffer with that name and with
+ the contents of the Directory node.  This is useful if you want to
+ browse multiple Info manuals simultaneously.
+ 
  @node Info Search, Add, Advanced, Expert Info
  @comment  node-name,  next,  previous,  up
  @section How to search Info documents for specific subjects
***************
*** 1083,1092 ****
    In Emacs, @kbd{i} runs the command @code{Info-index}.
  
  @findex info-apropos
  If you don't know what manual documents something, try the @kbd{M-x
! info-apropos} command.  It prompts for a string and then looks up that
! string in all the indices of all the Info documents installed on your
! system.
  
  @kindex s @r{(Info mode)}
  @findex Info-search
--- 1091,1102 ----
    In Emacs, @kbd{i} runs the command @code{Info-index}.
  
  @findex info-apropos
+ @findex index-apropos
  If you don't know what manual documents something, try the @kbd{M-x
! info-apropos} command in Emacs, or the @kbd{M-x index-apropos} command
! in the stand-alone reader.  It prompts for a string and then looks up
! that string in all the indices of all the Info documents installed on
! your system.
  
  @kindex s @r{(Info mode)}
  @findex Info-search
***************
*** 1095,1104 ****
  type @kbd{s} followed by the string to search for, terminated by
  @key{RET}.  To search for the same string again, just @kbd{s} followed
  by @key{RET} will do.  The file's nodes are scanned in the order
! they are in in the file, which has no necessary relationship to the
  order that they may be in the tree structure of menus and @samp{next}
  pointers.  But normally the two orders are not very different.  In any
! case, you can always do a @kbd{b} to find out what node you have
  reached, if the header is not visible (this can happen, because @kbd{s}
  puts your cursor at the occurrence of the string, not at the beginning
  of the node).
--- 1105,1114 ----
  type @kbd{s} followed by the string to search for, terminated by
  @key{RET}.  To search for the same string again, just @kbd{s} followed
  by @key{RET} will do.  The file's nodes are scanned in the order
! they are in the file, which has no necessary relationship to the
  order that they may be in the tree structure of menus and @samp{next}
  pointers.  But normally the two orders are not very different.  In any
! case, you can always look at the echo area to find out what node you have
  reached, if the header is not visible (this can happen, because @kbd{s}
  puts your cursor at the occurrence of the string, not at the beginning
  of the node).
***************
*** 1109,1114 ****
--- 1119,1134 ----
  kind of search command.  Both @kbd{s} and @kbd{M-s} run in Emacs the
  command @code{Info-search}.
  
+ @kindex C-s @r{(Info mode)}
+ @kindex C-r @r{(Info mode)}
+ @findex isearch
+   Using @kbd{s} is not very convenient, because to repeat a search you
+ need to type two keys @kbd{s} and @key{RET} every time.  Instead of this,
+ in Emacs Info and in the stand-alone Info you can use a powerful
+ incremental search started with @kbd{C-s} or @kbd{C-r} which searches
+ through multiple Info nodes.  In Emacs, this behavior is enabled only
+ if the variable @code{Info-isearch-search} is non-@code{nil}
+ (@pxref{Emacs Info Variables}).
  
  @node Add, Menus, Info Search, Expert Info
  @comment  node-name,  next,  previous,  up
***************
*** 1245,1253 ****
  has two connected components.  You are in one of them, which is under
  the node @samp{Top}; the other contains the node @samp{Help} which the
  @kbd{h} command goes to.  In fact, since there is no garbage
! collector, nothing terrible happens if a substructure is not pointed
! to, but such a substructure is rather useless since nobody can
! ever find out that it exists.
  
  @node Cross-refs, Tags, Menus, Expert Info
  @comment  node-name,  next,  previous,  up
--- 1265,1273 ----
  has two connected components.  You are in one of them, which is under
  the node @samp{Top}; the other contains the node @samp{Help} which the
  @kbd{h} command goes to.  In fact, since there is no garbage
! collector on the node graph, nothing terrible happens if a substructure
! is not pointed to, but such a substructure is rather useless since nobody
! can ever find out that it exists.
  
  @node Cross-refs, Tags, Menus, Expert Info
  @comment  node-name,  next,  previous,  up
***************
*** 1328,1334 ****
  @comment  node-name,  next,  previous,  up
  @section Tags Tables for Info Files
  
! @cindex tags tables in info files
    You can speed up the access to nodes of a large Info file by giving
  it a tags table.  Unlike the tags table for a program, the tags table for
  an Info file lives inside the file itself and is used
--- 1348,1354 ----
  @comment  node-name,  next,  previous,  up
  @section Tags Tables for Info Files
  
! @cindex tags tables in Info files
    You can speed up the access to nodes of a large Info file by giving
  it a tags table.  Unlike the tags table for a program, the tags table for
  an Info file lives inside the file itself and is used
***************
*** 1408,1429 ****
  @env{INFOPATH} variable in the environment.
  
  If you wish to customize the Info directory search list for both Emacs
! info and stand-alone Info, it is best to set the @env{INFOPATH}
  environment variable, since that applies to both programs.
  
  @item Info-additional-directory-list
  A list of additional directories to search for Info documentation files.
  These directories are not searched for merging the @file{dir} file.
  
! @item Info-fontify
! When set to a non-@code{nil} value, enables highlighting of Info
! files.  The default is @code{t}.  You can change how the highlighting
! looks by customizing the faces @code{info-node}, @code{info-xref},
! @code{info-header-xref}, @code{info-header-node}, @code{info-menu-5},
! @code{info-menu-header}, and @code{info-title-@var{n}-face} (where
! @var{n} is the level of the section, a number between 1 and 4).  To
! customize a face, type @kbd{M-x customize-face @key{RET} @var{face}
! @key{RET}}, where @var{face} is one of the face names listed here.
  
  @item Info-use-header-line
  If non-@code{nil}, Emacs puts in the Info buffer a header line showing
--- 1428,1457 ----
  @env{INFOPATH} variable in the environment.
  
  If you wish to customize the Info directory search list for both Emacs
! Info and stand-alone Info, it is best to set the @env{INFOPATH}
  environment variable, since that applies to both programs.
  
  @item Info-additional-directory-list
  A list of additional directories to search for Info documentation files.
  These directories are not searched for merging the @file{dir} file.
  
! @item Info-mode-hook
! Hooks run when @code{Info-mode} is called.  By default, it contains
! the hook @code{turn-on-font-lock} which enables highlighting of Info
! files.  You can change how the highlighting looks by customizing the
! faces @code{info-node}, @code{info-xref}, @code{info-xref-visited},
! @code{info-header-xref}, @code{info-header-node}, @code{info-menu-header},
! @code{info-menu-star}, and @code{info-title-@var{n}} (where @var{n}
! is the level of the section, a number between 1 and 4).  To customize
! a face, type @kbd{M-x customize-face @key{RET} @var{face} @key{RET}},
! where @var{face} is one of the face names listed here.
! 
! @item Info-fontify-maximum-menu-size
! Maximum size of menu to fontify if @code{font-lock-mode} is non-@code{nil}.
! 
! @item Info-fontify-visited-nodes
! If non-@code{nil}, menu items and cross-references pointing to visited
! nodes are displayed in the @code{info-xref-visited} face.
  
  @item Info-use-header-line
  If non-@code{nil}, Emacs puts in the Info buffer a header line showing
***************
*** 1448,1453 ****
--- 1476,1484 ----
  @code{nil} results in behavior similar to the stand-alone Info reader
  program, which visits the first subnode from the menu only when you
  hit the end of the current node.  The default is @code{nil}.
+ 
+ @item Info-isearch-search
+ If non-@code{nil}, isearch in Info searches through multiple nodes.
  
  @item Info-enable-active-nodes
  When set to a non-@code{nil} value, allows Info to execute Lisp code

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: info.texi

[Lennart Borgman]

Juri Linkov wrote:

>--- 674,683 ----
>  next subtopic line.  To move to a previous subtopic line, type
>  @kbd{M-@key{TAB}}---that is, press and hold the @key{META} key and then
>  press @key{TAB}.  (On some keyboards, the @key{META} key might be labeled
>! @samp{Alt}.)  On window systems, which intercept @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} key
>! combination (usually for switching between windows), you can use
>! @kbd{S-@key{TAB}} to move to a previous subtopic line (press and hold
>! the @key{Shift} key and then press @key{TAB}).
>  
>
I find it very good that you mention S-Tab. However would it not be 
better to tell it the other way round. S-Tab is perhaps more common for 
operations like this and available on more system?

Re: info.texi

[Luc Teirlinck]

Lennart Borgman wrote:

   I find it very good that you mention S-Tab. However would it not be 
   better to tell it the other way round. S-Tab is perhaps more common for 
   operations like this and available on more system?

Do not forget that this is common documentation for the Emacs and the
standalone Info reader.  When using the standalone reader (or `emacs -nw'),
S-TAB will usually not work (actually, it will usually be equivalent
to plain TAB).  M-tab may not work either, because it still might get
"stolen" by the Window Manager.  So I would keep mentioning M-TAB as
the main key, but mention ESC-TAB and C-M-i as further alternatives in
addition to S-TAB.

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: info.texi

[Juri Linkov]

> Do not forget that this is common documentation for the Emacs and the
> standalone Info reader.  When using the standalone reader (or `emacs -nw'),
> S-TAB will usually not work (actually, it will usually be equivalent
> to plain TAB).  M-tab may not work either, because it still might get
> "stolen" by the Window Manager.  So I would keep mentioning M-TAB as
> the main key, but mention ESC-TAB and C-M-i as further alternatives in
> addition to S-TAB.

I just noticed that neither M-TAB, ESC-TAB nor C-M-i moves the cursor
to the previous reference.  All these keys are bound to `complete-symbol'
in Info mode on X, xterm and console.  I wonder how users move the
cursor to the previous reference when S-TAB doesn't work, and M-TAB
is bound to the useless `complete-symbol' by default?

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: info.texi

[Lennart Borgman]

Juri Linkov wrote:

>>Do not forget that this is common documentation for the Emacs and the
>>standalone Info reader.  When using the standalone reader (or `emacs -nw'),
>>S-TAB will usually not work (actually, it will usually be equivalent
>>to plain TAB).  M-tab may not work either, because it still might get
>>"stolen" by the Window Manager.  So I would keep mentioning M-TAB as
>>the main key, but mention ESC-TAB and C-M-i as further alternatives in
>>addition to S-TAB.
>>    
>>
>
>I just noticed that neither M-TAB, ESC-TAB nor C-M-i moves the cursor
>to the previous reference.  All these keys are bound to `complete-symbol'
>in Info mode on X, xterm and console.  I wonder how users move the
>cursor to the previous reference when S-TAB doesn't work, and M-TAB
>is bound to the useless `complete-symbol' by default?
>
Hm. Wonder if non-standard keybindings just are too hard to remember? 
Maybe those users just thought they had forgotten which key it was?

Re: info.texi

[Luc Teirlinck]

Juri Linkov wrote:

   I just noticed that neither M-TAB, ESC-TAB nor C-M-i moves the cursor
   to the previous reference.  All these keys are bound to `complete-symbol'
   in Info mode on X, xterm and console.

Indeed.  I checked it in the standalone reader, where they _do_ work.
I forgot to check in `emacs -nw'.

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: info.texi

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 21:09:07 -0500 (CDT)
> From: Luc Teirlinck <teirllm@dms.auburn.edu>
> Cc: lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se, emacs-devel@gnu.org,
> 	karl@freefriends.org
> 
> Juri Linkov wrote:
> 
>    I just noticed that neither M-TAB, ESC-TAB nor C-M-i moves the cursor
>    to the previous reference.  All these keys are bound to `complete-symbol'
>    in Info mode on X, xterm and console.
> 
> Indeed.  I checked it in the standalone reader, where they _do_ work.
> I forgot to check in `emacs -nw'.

S-TAB works for me in "emacs -nw" as well.  So I'm not sure there is a
problem.  Can someone describe a setup in which S-TAB does _not_ work?

Re: info.texi

[Luc Teirlinck]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

   S-TAB works for me in "emacs -nw" as well.  So I'm not sure there is a
   problem.

That means that your terminal can distinguish TAB and S-TAB.

  Can someone describe a setup in which S-TAB does _not_ work?

Using a terminal that can not distinguish.  For my (old) version of
GNOME, a GNOME terminal can not.  Can your console distinguish?

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: info.texi

[Robert J. Chassell]

on an IBM A21p laptop with a IBM ThinkPad 770 (XFree86; US) keyboard
CVS snapshot of 2005 Jul 16 11:40 
GNU Emacs 22.0.50.48 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.6.2)

  Can someone describe a setup in which S-TAB does _not_ work?

Started with 

    emacs -nw -Q -D

S-TAB fails with X in an xterm under Enlightenment.
S-TAB also fails in a Virtual Console (no X).
M-TAB, ESC-TAB, and C-M-i also fail in both instances.

However, evoked in an xterm with

    emacs -Q -D

S-TAB succeeds as a frame in the X window manager under Enlightenment.

-- 
    Robert J. Chassell                         
    bob@rattlesnake.com                         GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8
    http://www.rattlesnake.com                  http://www.teak.cc

Re: info.texi

[Andreas Schwab]

"Robert J. Chassell" <bob@rattlesnake.com> writes:

> Started with 
>
>     emacs -nw -Q -D
>
> S-TAB fails with X in an xterm under Enlightenment.

Works fine here (with xterm-203).

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de
SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: info.texi

[Karl Berry]

Hi Juri,

Thanks for doing those updates.  They look generally fine to me, just a
few comments:
    
    ! @samp{Alt}.)  On window systems, which intercept @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} key

No comma here.

    ! In Emacs, the file name is not hidden as well, 

This seems a little unclear to me.  Does Emacs always show the file
name, or only if it differs from the current manual?

    ! appearing in a separate box (tool tip) or in the echo area, will show

No comma.

    ! @samp{Overview} cross reference above and watch what happens.  If you

Perhaps nicer to include an actual cross-reference here instead
referring to an xref "above".

    ! @item Info-fontify
    ! When set to a non-@code{nil} value, enables highlighting of Info

Nothing to do with this text, which is fine by me, but a question: is
there any way to turn off fontification "globally"?  Or does each
individual xxx-fontify (or whatever variable) have to be turned off?  I
find fontified results hard to read in "tty" emacs (in an xterm, as
opposed to running directly under X).  At one point I did (setq-default
global-font-lock-mode nil) but that doesn't seem to have any particular
effect any more.  (In 21.3.)


Thanks,
Karl

Re: info.texi

[Juri Linkov]

>     ! In Emacs, the file name is not hidden as well, 
>
> This seems a little unclear to me.  Does Emacs always show the file
> name, or only if it differs from the current manual?

Emacs always shows the file name.  Since texinfo doesn't produce Info
files with cross-references where the file name between parentheses
refers to the current manual, so cross-references displayed by Emacs
always refer to another Info file, and the file name between parentheses
is always visible.

>     ! @samp{Overview} cross reference above and watch what happens.  If you
>
> Perhaps nicer to include an actual cross-reference here instead
> referring to an xref "above".

Like this?

@@ -816,7 +816,8 @@
 appearing in a separate box (tool tip) or in the echo area will show
 the full cross-reference including the file name and the node name of
 the cross reference.  If you have a mouse, just leave it over the
-@samp{Overview} cross reference above and watch what happens.  If you
+cross reference @xref{Top,, Overview of Texinfo, texinfo, Texinfo:
+The GNU Documentation Format}, and watch what happens.  If you
 always like to have that information visible without having to move
 your mouse over the cross reference, use @kbd{M-x visible-mode}, or
 set @code{Info-hide-note-references} to a value other than @code{t}

>     ! @item Info-fontify
>     ! When set to a non-@code{nil} value, enables highlighting of Info
>
> Nothing to do with this text, which is fine by me, but a question: is
> there any way to turn off fontification "globally"?  Or does each
> individual xxx-fontify (or whatever variable) have to be turned off?  I
> find fontified results hard to read in "tty" emacs (in an xterm, as
> opposed to running directly under X).  At one point I did (setq-default
> global-font-lock-mode nil) but that doesn't seem to have any particular
> effect any more.  (In 21.3.)

I don't know what was the intended way to turn off fontification in Info
after removing the variable `Info-fontify' (this is not explained
anywhere in the documentation).  But deleting `turn-on-font-lock'
from `Info-mode-hook' before calling `Info-mode' should do this.
Or invoking `M-x font-lock-mode' once will do the same.

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: info.texi

[David Kastrup]

karl@freefriends.org (Karl Berry) writes:

> Thanks for doing those updates.  They look generally fine to me, just a
> few comments:
>     
>     ! @samp{Alt}.)  On window systems, which intercept @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} key
>
> No comma here.

Maybe "On window systems intercepting @kbd..." would be a less subtle
distinction.  Or "On those window systems which...".  It might be a
bit much to demand that non-native speakers catch the difference in
meaning conveyed by the absence of the comma.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: info.texi

[Richard M. Stallman]

       I just noticed that neither M-TAB, ESC-TAB nor C-M-i moves the cursor
       to the previous reference.  All these keys are bound to `complete-symbol'
       in Info mode on X, xterm and console.

    Indeed.  I checked it in the standalone reader, where they _do_ work.
    I forgot to check in `emacs -nw'.

We can rebind M-TAB and ESC TAB in info.el if that is useful.

Re: info.texi

[Richard M. Stallman]

    S-TAB works for me in "emacs -nw" as well.  So I'm not sure there is a
    problem.  Can someone describe a setup in which S-TAB does _not_ work?

On a real ASCII terminal, S-TAB is not distinguishable from TAB.
I am not sure if anyone uses real ASCII terminals any more.

Re: info.texi

[Karl Berry]

    Emacs always shows the file name.  

Ok, in that case I suggest text like the following:

 This file name appears in cross references and node names if it differs
 from the current file, so you can always know that you are going to be
 switching to another manual and which one.

 However, Emacs normally hides some other text in cross-references.
 ...

    > Perhaps nicer to include an actual cross-reference here instead
    > referring to an xref "above".

    Like this?

Yes.  Looks fine, thanks.

Re: info.texi

[Juri Linkov]

> PS: I also have a proposal on a better node partition in info.texi,
> but I will send a separate patch, because after moving Info nodes
> up and down, small changes will not be visible in the diff.

Since now fixes for info.texi are installed, I want to propose
a better node partition.  The main deficiency of the current partition
is that there are only two major top level nodes: `Getting Started' -
for novices, and `Expert Info' which mixes normal Info commands
that every user needs to know (such as search), and description of
the Info format with unnecessary information for most Info users.

The new node tree has three top nodes: `Getting Started' for novices,
`Advanced' for advances users, and `Expert Info' with the description
of Info internals.

The overlong node `Advanced' is split into `Go to node', `Choose menu
subtopic', `Edit document' and `Create Info buffer'.  The overlong
node `Info Search' is split into `Search Index' and `Search Text'.
The node `Emacs Info Variables' changes its place to be under
`Advanced'.  The node `Creating an Info File' moves under `Expert Info'.

I could submit a patch if this is ok.

Old TOC:                                New TOC:

Top                                     Top
Getting Started                         Getting Started
        Help-Small-Screen                       Help-Small-Screen
        Help                                    Help
        Help-P                                  Help-P
        Help-^L                                 Help-^L
        Help-Inv                                Help-Inv
                Help-]                                  Help-]
                Help-]                                  Help-]
                Help-]                                  Help-]
        Help-M                                  Help-M
                Help-FOO                                Help-FOO
                Help-FOO                                Help-FOO
                Help-FOO                                Help-FOO
        Help-Xref                               Help-Xref
        Help-Int                                Help-Int
        Help-Q                                  Help-Q
Expert Info                             Advanced
        Advanced                                Go to node
        Info Search                             Choose menu subtopic
        Add                                     Edit document
        Menus                                   Create Info buffer
        Cross-refs                              Search Index
                Help-Cross                      Search Text
        Tags                                    Emacs Info Variables
        Checking                        Expert Info
        Emacs Info Variables                    Add
Creating an Info File                           Menus
Index                                           Cross-refs
                                                        Help-Cross
                                                Tags
                                                Checking
                                                Creating an Info File
                                        Index

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: info.texi

[Karl Berry]

    The new node tree has three top nodes: `Getting Started' for novices,
    `Advanced' for advances users, and `Expert Info' with the description
    of Info internals.

In general this sounds quite good to me.  The current conglomeration has
always struck me as less than ideal.

Two thoughts:

- "edit document" seems "expert" to me.  

- the search commands seem by far the most important to me.  In fact,
  they are the primary feature that (still) distinguishes Info from HTML
  etc.  So I would put them first in the Advanced chapter.  I also
  suggest putting Search Text before Search Index.

Thanks for all your work on this.

Karl

Re: info.texi

[Juri Linkov]

>     The new node tree has three top nodes: `Getting Started' for novices,
>     `Advanced' for advances users, and `Expert Info' with the description
>     of Info internals.
>
> In general this sounds quite good to me.  The current conglomeration has
> always struck me as less than ideal.
>
> Two thoughts:
>
> - "edit document" seems "expert" to me.  

The item `Info-enable-edit' in the node `Emacs Info Variables' has a
cross-reference @xref{Add, Edit}.  It seems it tries to refer to the
text describing the command `e' which is currently located in the node
`Advanced'.  So either this text should be moved to the node `Add',
or to a new node `Edit' under `Expert Info'.

> - the search commands seem by far the most important to me.  In fact,
>   they are the primary feature that (still) distinguishes Info from HTML
>   etc.  So I would put them first in the Advanced chapter.  I also
>   suggest putting Search Text before Search Index.

Ok, a new node tree is below.  I will create a patch in a few days
if no one has more suggestions.

Getting Started
	Help-Small-Screen
	Help
	Help-P
	Help-^L
	Help-Inv
		Help-]
		Help-]
		Help-]
	Help-M
		Help-FOO
		Help-FOO
		Help-FOO
	Help-Xref
	Help-Int
	Help-Q
Advanced
	Search Text
	Search Index
	Go to node
	Choose menu subtopic
	Create Info buffer
	Emacs Info Variables
Expert Info
	Edit
	Add
	Menus
	Cross-refs
		Help-Cross
	Tags
	Checking
	Creating an Info File
Index

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: info.texi

[Karl Berry]

    or to a new node `Edit' under `Expert Info'.

I would go for a new node.

The new proposed toc looks good to me.

Thanks,
Karl

Re: info.texi

[Richard M. Stallman]

Your proposed rearrangement seems good to me, except we could just
delete "Edit Document", because that isn't really useful.  Most Info
files are compiled from Texinfo files, and it makes little sense
to edit the Info files.

Karl wrote:

    - the search commands seem by far the most important to me.  In fact,
      they are the primary feature that (still) distinguishes Info from HTML
      etc.  So I would put them first in the Advanced chapter.  I also
      suggest putting Search Text before Search Index.

I have no strong opinion about this question.

Re: info.texi

[Juri Linkov]

Richard wrote some time ago about node rearrangement for info.texi:

> Your proposed rearrangement seems good to me, except we could just
> delete "Edit Document", because that isn't really useful.  Most Info
> files are compiled from Texinfo files, and it makes little sense
> to edit the Info files.

Karl wrote at the same time:

>     or to a new node `Edit' under `Expert Info'.
>
> I would go for a new node.

What should I do?

OT1H, editing the Info files makes no sense nowadays, so a separate
node is quite useless.  OTOH, there are other nodes in info.texi under
"Expert Info" describing how to manually create Info nodes.  It would
not harm to add new node "Edit document" under "Expert Info" where it
won't bother most users.

If not, the two paragraphs about making Info document editable could
be added to the node "Add" after the following sentence:

    However, if you want to edit an Info file manually and
    install it manually, here is how.

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: info.texi

[Karl Berry]

    It would not harm to add new node "Edit document" under "Expert
    Info" where it won't bother most users.

That is my feeling, but if you or rms prefer to delete all the existing
text about manually creating Info nodes, etc., then I don't mind.

    If not, the two paragraphs about making Info document editable could
    be added to the node "Add" after the following sentence:

The Add node is already pretty long.  I think a separate node would be
better than making it still longer, if the text stays.

Thanks,
Karl

Re: info.texi

[Richard M. Stallman]

    OT1H, editing the Info files makes no sense nowadays, so a separate
    node is quite useless.  OTOH, there are other nodes in info.texi under
    "Expert Info" describing how to manually create Info nodes.  It would
    not harm to add new node "Edit document" under "Expert Info" where it
    won't bother most users.

I think that editing an Info file in Info is even less often useful
than editing one directly thru Emacs.  So I think we should
de-document the command.  And perhaps delete the code for it, too.

Re: info.texi

[Juri Linkov]

> I think that editing an Info file in Info is even less often useful
> than editing one directly thru Emacs.  So I think we should
> de-document the command.

OK, I deleted all mentions of it from the Info manual.

> And perhaps delete the code for it, too.

I'm not sure about deleting the code (I don't know if there are users
still using it), so I only deleted the menu item "Edit" and its
description from the docstring of `Info-mode'.

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: info.texi

[Juri Linkov]

With all rearrangements completed in info.texi, perhaps someone should
proof-read the Info manual before removing the corresponding to-do item
from FOR-RELEASE?

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/