* Item for TODO?
@ 2005-01-21 5:58 Nick Roberts
2005-01-21 15:55 ` Stefan Monnier
2005-01-22 2:52 ` Richard Stallman
0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Nick Roberts @ 2005-01-21 5:58 UTC (permalink / raw
I would like to see some of the toolbar functionality available to text-only
terminals but do not want to do the work. Such a feature would map a bit like
tmm-menubar does, I guess, but I think it would work more naturally. The
buttons could look a bit like those used by custom.el. However, I do not want
to start a discussion about how it would work, just add an entry in TODO
for the next release, in the hope of finding someone who would like to do
it.
Is it a generally desirable feature and can I add it to TODO? My angle is
to improve Emacs capability as a debugger on a text-only terminal.
Nick
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Item for TODO?
2005-01-21 5:58 Item for TODO? Nick Roberts
@ 2005-01-21 15:55 ` Stefan Monnier
2005-01-21 16:42 ` John Paul Wallington
2005-01-22 8:36 ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-01-22 2:52 ` Richard Stallman
1 sibling, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2005-01-21 15:55 UTC (permalink / raw
Cc: emacs-devel
> Is it a generally desirable feature and can I add it to TODO?
Go for it. AFAIK the fact that a feature is only available in some but not
all environments is considered as a "misfeature". Witness, the fact that
most Emacs features (including mouse support as you obviously know) are
supported under a tty. There's also been discussions to add support for
tooltips, tho it's not clear exactly what this should look like, but it
could begin with a command to "show tooltip at point" which could be added
to the C-h map.
Stefan
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Item for TODO?
2005-01-21 15:55 ` Stefan Monnier
@ 2005-01-21 16:42 ` John Paul Wallington
2005-01-22 8:36 ` Eli Zaretskii
1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: John Paul Wallington @ 2005-01-21 16:42 UTC (permalink / raw
Cc: nickrob, emacs-devel
> There's also been discussions to add support for tooltips, tho it's
> not clear exactly what this should look like, but it could begin
> with a command to "show tooltip at point" which could be added to
> the C-h map.
We have that:
C-h . runs the command display-local-help
which is an interactive compiled Lisp function in `help-at-pt'.
[...]
Display local help in the echo area.
This displays a short help message, namely the string produced by
the `kbd-help' property at point. If `kbd-help' does not produce
a string, but the `help-echo' property does, then that string is
printed instead.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Item for TODO?
2005-01-21 5:58 Item for TODO? Nick Roberts
2005-01-21 15:55 ` Stefan Monnier
@ 2005-01-22 2:52 ` Richard Stallman
2005-01-22 7:42 ` Nick Roberts
1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2005-01-22 2:52 UTC (permalink / raw
Cc: emacs-devel
I would like to see some of the toolbar functionality available to text-only
terminals but do not want to do the work.
Is it a generally desirable feature and can I add it to TODO? My angle is
to improve Emacs capability as a debugger on a text-only terminal.
I don't see the point. People who use text-only terminals normally
do so because they prefer text commands.
There is no way to display images, so a "tool bar" would have to have
textual names, and then they might as well be in the menu bar. (A
menu bar item doesn't have to lead to a menu. It can execute a
command directly. Using submenus is just the usual practice.)
Either way, you would have to invoke them with keys. So why not just
bind the keys instead?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Item for TODO?
2005-01-22 2:52 ` Richard Stallman
@ 2005-01-22 7:42 ` Nick Roberts
2005-01-22 23:54 ` Richard Stallman
0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Nick Roberts @ 2005-01-22 7:42 UTC (permalink / raw
Cc: emacs-devel
> I would like to see some of the toolbar functionality available to
> text-only terminals but do not want to do the work.
>
> Is it a generally desirable feature and can I add it to TODO? My angle is
> to improve Emacs capability as a debugger on a text-only terminal.
>
> I don't see the point. People who use text-only terminals normally
> do so because they prefer text commands.
Sometimes its because filtering prevents using X (remote connections), sometimes
its more convenient/quicker not to start an X server for simple tasks and
presumably some architectures don't have systems that support X.
> There is no way to display images, so a "tool bar" would have to have
> textual names, and then they might as well be in the menu bar. (A
> menu bar item doesn't have to lead to a menu. It can execute a
> command directly. Using submenus is just the usual practice.)
Can you give an example of how this would work on a tty?
I can configure a menu-item as a button in X, but if I do the same on a tty
it just presents me with a list of completions (of top-level menu items).
> Either way, you would have to invoke them with keys.
Thats not true. Text-only does not mean "no mouse". The command
tmm-menubar-mouse can be invoked by clicking on on the menubar with the mouse.
> So why not just bind the keys instead?
Since the mouse is generally available on ttys, why should the user be denied
the opportunity to use it?
Nick
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Item for TODO?
2005-01-21 15:55 ` Stefan Monnier
2005-01-21 16:42 ` John Paul Wallington
@ 2005-01-22 8:36 ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-01-22 11:09 ` Nick Roberts
1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2005-01-22 8:36 UTC (permalink / raw
Cc: nickrob, emacs-devel
> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:55:27 -0500
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> There's also been discussions to add support for tooltips, tho it's
> not clear exactly what this should look like
Emacs already has the machinery to support this: if show-help-function
is nil (and it usually is on a tty), the tooltip text is shown in the
echo area. The Windows port used that functionality before tooltip
support was added to it, and the MS-DOS port still uses it.
So the only thing that's missing is to make the tty mouse support
package inject help-echo events into the Emacs keyboard queue.
Everything else should ``just work''.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Item for TODO?
2005-01-22 8:36 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2005-01-22 11:09 ` Nick Roberts
2005-01-22 11:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Nick Roberts @ 2005-01-22 11:09 UTC (permalink / raw
Cc: Stefan Monnier, emacs-devel
> > There's also been discussions to add support for tooltips, tho it's
> > not clear exactly what this should look like
>
> Emacs already has the machinery to support this: if show-help-function
> is nil (and it usually is on a tty), the tooltip text is shown in the
> echo area. The Windows port used that functionality before tooltip
> support was added to it, and the MS-DOS port still uses it.
>
> So the only thing that's missing is to make the tty mouse support
> package inject help-echo events into the Emacs keyboard queue.
> Everything else should ``just work''.
What is a help-echo event?
On an xterm, if you move the mouse around no input characters are generated
for Emacs to read. It only knows where the mouse is when you click a
button. In between, I don't think it knows where the mouse is. How could
it then display a tooltip?
Nick
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Item for TODO?
2005-01-22 11:09 ` Nick Roberts
@ 2005-01-22 11:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-01-22 12:25 ` David Kastrup
0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2005-01-22 11:52 UTC (permalink / raw
Cc: emacs-devel
> From: Nick Roberts <nickrob@snap.net.nz>
> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 00:09:39 +1300
> Cc: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> > So the only thing that's missing is to make the tty mouse support
> > package inject help-echo events into the Emacs keyboard queue.
> > Everything else should ``just work''.
>
> What is a help-echo event?
See keyboard.c, functions read_char and show_help_echo. If the event
found (by kbd_buffer_get_event) in the keyboard queue is a list of the
special form
(help-echo FRAME HELP WINDOW OBJECT POS)
then Emacs displays the text specified by HELP as a tooltip or an echo
area message (see the comments in keyboard.c immediately before
show_help_echo for the details).
> On an xterm, if you move the mouse around no input characters are generated
> for Emacs to read. It only knows where the mouse is when you click a
> button. In between, I don't think it knows where the mouse is.
Does this mean that the track-mouse form does not work with xt-mouse?
> How could it then display a tooltip?
If there's no way to produce input with xt-mouse, then I think
tooltips cannot be triggered by mouse movements. You need to come up
with some other method of triggering the tooltip display. Once you do
come up with such a method, all you need to do is make that method
produce events of the above form, and the rest will work
automagically.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Item for TODO?
2005-01-22 11:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2005-01-22 12:25 ` David Kastrup
0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: David Kastrup @ 2005-01-22 12:25 UTC (permalink / raw
Cc: Nick Roberts, emacs-devel
"Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> If there's no way to produce input with xt-mouse, then I think
> tooltips cannot be triggered by mouse movements. You need to come
> up with some other method of triggering the tooltip display. Once
> you do come up with such a method, all you need to do is make that
> method produce events of the above form, and the rest will work
> automagically.
zone could let some ASCII creature meander around the screen,
triggering tooltips when running across them.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Item for TODO?
2005-01-22 7:42 ` Nick Roberts
@ 2005-01-22 23:54 ` Richard Stallman
2005-01-23 0:35 ` Nick Roberts
2005-01-23 10:53 ` David Kastrup
0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2005-01-22 23:54 UTC (permalink / raw
Cc: emacs-devel
I can configure a menu-item as a button in X, but if I do the same on a tty
it just presents me with a list of completions (of top-level menu items).
...
Thats not true. Text-only does not mean "no mouse". The command
tmm-menubar-mouse can be invoked by clicking on on the menubar with the mouse.
If mouse selection doesn't work right for a menu bar item that has no
menu, then it's a bug. Fixing it should be much easier than adding a
separate tool bar. Also, since it is a bug fix, it is ok to do it
now.
I still don't think that a tool bar would have any advantage
over the menu bar, for a tty.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Item for TODO?
2005-01-22 23:54 ` Richard Stallman
@ 2005-01-23 0:35 ` Nick Roberts
2005-01-24 6:50 ` Richard Stallman
2005-01-23 10:53 ` David Kastrup
1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Nick Roberts @ 2005-01-23 0:35 UTC (permalink / raw
Cc: emacs-devel
> If mouse selection doesn't work right for a menu bar item that has no
> menu, then it's a bug. Fixing it should be much easier than adding a
> separate tool bar. Also, since it is a bug fix, it is ok to do it
> now.
>
> I still don't think that a tool bar would have any advantage
> over the menu bar, for a tty.
Even if the menu bar is fixed, it seems inconvenient to make tool bar like
buttons share the menu bar with menus. I think its cleaner to keep them
separate and then they can be toggled independently with tool-bar-mode and
menu-bar-mode.
But if you don't think there is any benefit, I'll remove the entry from TODO.
Nick
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Item for TODO?
2005-01-22 23:54 ` Richard Stallman
2005-01-23 0:35 ` Nick Roberts
@ 2005-01-23 10:53 ` David Kastrup
1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: David Kastrup @ 2005-01-23 10:53 UTC (permalink / raw
Cc: Nick Roberts, emacs-devel
Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> I can configure a menu-item as a button in X, but if I do the
> same on a tty it just presents me with a list of completions (of
> top-level menu items). ... Thats not true. Text-only does not
> mean "no mouse". The command tmm-menubar-mouse can be invoked by
> clicking on on the menubar with the mouse.
>
> If mouse selection doesn't work right for a menu bar item that has
> no menu, then it's a bug. Fixing it should be much easier than
> adding a separate tool bar. Also, since it is a bug fix, it is ok
> to do it now.
>
> I still don't think that a tool bar would have any advantage over
> the menu bar, for a tty.
The difference between a toolbar and a menu is that the toolbar
contains immediate actions, only the most important ones. The screen
real estate on a tty is limited: our current implementation of
keyboard menus is not really convenient for use with a mouse, but can
be configured to take away no space when not used. Implementing a
toolbar would at least require short button names: I don't think that
we have them available in general. Maybe one would need mouse-over
action that changes a button [Pre] to [Preview] or similar.
mouse-over action would also make possible having a menu just appear
when the mouse cursor is in the top tty row.
Anyway, there are a number of things that might be worth thinking
about, in particular in connection with mouse-over (and don't forget
that at the time frames we are talking of, we also might negotiate
mouse-over events with gpm and xterm people).
But that discussion is something for after the release, at best. I
think it would take even too much time to agree on something
definitive for the TODO file.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Item for TODO?
2005-01-23 0:35 ` Nick Roberts
@ 2005-01-24 6:50 ` Richard Stallman
0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2005-01-24 6:50 UTC (permalink / raw
Cc: emacs-devel
Even if the menu bar is fixed, it seems inconvenient to make tool bar like
buttons share the menu bar with menus. I think its cleaner to keep them
separate and then they can be toggled independently with tool-bar-mode and
menu-bar-mode.
It would be useful to make the usual tool-bar definitions work,
although the tty implementation would look basically like the menubar.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2005-01-24 6:50 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 13+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2005-01-21 5:58 Item for TODO? Nick Roberts
2005-01-21 15:55 ` Stefan Monnier
2005-01-21 16:42 ` John Paul Wallington
2005-01-22 8:36 ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-01-22 11:09 ` Nick Roberts
2005-01-22 11:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-01-22 12:25 ` David Kastrup
2005-01-22 2:52 ` Richard Stallman
2005-01-22 7:42 ` Nick Roberts
2005-01-22 23:54 ` Richard Stallman
2005-01-23 0:35 ` Nick Roberts
2005-01-24 6:50 ` Richard Stallman
2005-01-23 10:53 ` David Kastrup
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