Updates to etc/MORE.STUFF

Updates to etc/MORE.STUFF

[Stephen Eglen]

Hi,

Would anyone object if I updated about 15 of the links in the file
/etc/MORE.STUFF?  Some are broken, and some get redirected to other
pages.  I'd also like to add links for two projects: 

 * preview latex: embed preview LaTeX images in source buffer
   <URL:http://preview-latex.sourceforge.net/>

 * Emacs statistical system: statistical programminging within Emacs
   <URL:http://www.analytics.washington.edu/Zope/wikis/ess/FrontPage>

Finally, I think emacswiki.org should also be mentioned, as this seems
to be the latest repository for archiving elisp files.

As the current maintainer of the Emacs Lisp List, I'd be happy to
periodically check the links in MORE.STUFF for updates, if people
agree. (I have write access to the cvs.)

Best wishes,
Stephen

Re: Updates to etc/MORE.STUFF

[Richard Stallman]

    Would anyone object if I updated about 15 of the links in the file
    /etc/MORE.STUFF?  Some are broken, and some get redirected to other
    pages.

Please do.

	    I'd also like to add links for two projects: 

     * preview latex: embed preview LaTeX images in source buffer
       <URL:http://preview-latex.sourceforge.net/>

     * Emacs statistical system: statistical programminging within Emacs
       <URL:http://www.analytics.washington.edu/Zope/wikis/ess/FrontPage>

Ok, assuming they are free software.

    Finally, I think emacswiki.org should also be mentioned, as this seems
    to be the latest repository for archiving elisp files.

Is all the software at emacswiki free?

    As the current maintainer of the Emacs Lisp List, I'd be happy to
    periodically check the links in MORE.STUFF for updates, if people
    agree. (I have write access to the cvs.)

Thank you.

Re: Updates to etc/MORE.STUFF

[Alex Schroeder]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     Finally, I think emacswiki.org should also be mentioned, as this seems
>     to be the latest repository for archiving elisp files.
>
> Is all the software at emacswiki free?

There is a small test when you upload .el files for phrases such as
"This is free software" and friends.

The wiki itself has also links to and discussion of non-free software,
such as certain operating systems and even a non-free elisp package.

Alex.
-- 
http://www.emacswiki.org/alex/
There is no substitute for experience.

Re: Updates to etc/MORE.STUFF

[Stefan Monnier]

> The wiki itself has also links to and discussion of non-free software,
> such as certain operating systems and even a non-free elisp package.

Which one is that ?
AFAIK, you can't distribute elisp code under a license more restrictive than
the GPL since it "links" to the GPL interpreter.


	Stefan

Re: Updates to etc/MORE.STUFF

[Richard Stallman]

    The wiki itself has also links to and discussion of non-free software,
    such as certain operating systems and even a non-free elisp package.

That sounds minor enough that we can overlook it and make the link
anyway.  However, I'd like to talk to the person who runs the site
about whether to continue having that link.  We should also look
at whether that non-free elisp package violates the GPL.
Can you please send me more info?

Re: Updates to etc/MORE.STUFF

[Alex Schroeder]

"Stefan Monnier" <monnier+gnu/emacs@cs.yale.edu> writes:

> AFAIK, you can't distribute elisp code under a license more
> restrictive than the GPL since it "links" to the GPL interpreter.

The would mean that you can only distribute GPL elisp programs?  I
don't think that is true.  How does this "linking" happen?  What if
the elisp runs in XEmacs?  What if it runs via the common-lisp
library Sam Steingold wrote?  What if it runs via the Guile library
somebody else whose name I forgot wrote?  I cannot believe this is
correct.

But to answer your question, the elisp program I refered to is
described on the wiki
(http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/RefactoringBrowser) using
the description from its homepage, I believe:

    xref is a refactoring browser for Emacs; a proprietary addon for C
    and Java, a bit more powerful than Visual Stuff from Windows, it
    also does refactoring as follows according to the web site: Method
    (function) extraction; renaming of packages, classes, parameters,
    variables, fields (structure records) and methods (functions);
    insertion, deletion, shift and exchange of parameters; field and
    method moving; pushing down and pulling up fields and methods;
    encapsulate field; and more. Refactorings are safe with detection
    of possible conflicts. (Sometimes referred to as X-ref.)

    * http://www.xref.sk/

Alex.
-- 
http://www.emacswiki.org/alex/
There is no substitute for experience.

Re: Updates to etc/MORE.STUFF

[Alex Schroeder]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     The wiki itself has also links to and discussion of non-free software,
>     such as certain operating systems and even a non-free elisp package.
>
> That sounds minor enough that we can overlook it and make the link
> anyway.  However, I'd like to talk to the person who runs the site
> about whether to continue having that link.  We should also look
> at whether that non-free elisp package violates the GPL.
> Can you please send me more info?

Sure.  I run the site.  :)  The wiki is a community site where any
visitor can change the text of the pages.  The pages are under the GNU
FDL.

We talked about deficiencies of the GNU FDL for wikis and Emacs Wiki
in particular back in September/October 2002.  My first mail in that
thread is dated 2002-09-26 and has the Subject: EmacsWiki and the Free
Documentation Licence.

We also talked about copyright assignments for wiki contributions.
Your first mail in that thread is dated 2002-10-18 and has the
Subject:  Copyright assignments for contribution to a wiki page.

As to the author of xref, the website lists the following contact info:

   Contact address: Marian Vittek, Xref-Tech, Luda Zubka 19, 841 01
   Bratislava, Slovakia. Phone: + 421 2 60 295 727, e-mail:
   vittek@xref-tech.com.

Alex.
-- 
http://www.emacswiki.org/alex/
There is no substitute for experience.

Re: Updates to etc/MORE.STUFF

[Richard Stallman]

    The would mean that you can only distribute GPL elisp programs?  I
    don't think that is true.

The GPL wouldn't apply to a program just for being written in Elisp.
However, if it uses non-language features of Emacs, that's a different
case.  So I don't know whether that particular program violates the
GPL.  However, whether it violates the GPL or not, if it's non-free
we should not be promoting it by telling people about it.

			       How does this "linking" happen?

Our position is that a program designed to call and be called by the
features of Emacs is an addition to Emacs.

								What if
    the elisp runs in XEmacs?

XEmacs is a modified version of Emacs, and is GPL-covered too, so I
don't think its existence changes the issue.

      What if it runs via the common-lisp
    library Sam Steingold wrote?

Sorry, I don't know anything about that library.

Re: Updates to etc/MORE.STUFF

[Stefan Monnier]

> > AFAIK, you can't distribute elisp code under a license more
> > restrictive than the GPL since it "links" to the GPL interpreter.
> The would mean that you can only distribute GPL elisp programs?

In theory, no, but in practice, that's pretty much the case.

> I don't think that is true.  How does this "linking" happen?  What if
> the elisp runs in XEmacs?  What if it runs via the common-lisp
> library Sam Steingold wrote?  What if it runs via the Guile library
> somebody else whose name I forgot wrote?  I cannot believe this is
> correct.

Very few elisp packages can be usefully run under anything else
than Emacs or XEmacs (and in both cases the code will link to GLP'd elisp
code, so it needs to be GLP'd as well).

> But to answer your question, the elisp program I refered to is
> described on the wiki
> (http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/RefactoringBrowser) using
> the description from its homepage, I believe:
> 
>     xref is a refactoring browser for Emacs; a proprietary addon for C
>     and Java, a bit more powerful than Visual Stuff from Windows, it
>     also does refactoring as follows according to the web site: Method
>     (function) extraction; renaming of packages, classes, parameters,
>     variables, fields (structure records) and methods (functions);
>     insertion, deletion, shift and exchange of parameters; field and
>     method moving; pushing down and pulling up fields and methods;
>     encapsulate field; and more. Refactorings are safe with detection
>     of possible conflicts. (Sometimes referred to as X-ref.)
> 
>     * http://www.xref.sk/

IIRC, I contacted the Xref guy a "long" time ago and he did agree to
GPL the elisp code.  I haven't checked the license of the elisp code
in recent versions, tho.


	Stefan