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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:322762 Archived-At: --_000_DU2PR02MB10109A727479A59356BA7BCB196802DU2PR02MB10109eu_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > > >> On the topic of what would be acceptable for an FFI, wouldn't someth= ing > > >> akin to what's done for modules be sufficient ? I.e., have the user= s of > > >> the interface explicitly state that they are compliant. > > >> > > >> It would scale better than an allow-list. IIUC, Arthur mentioned th= is > > >> in another thread. If this wouldn't be sufficient for an FFI, could= you > > >> please elaborate on why that's the case ? > > > > > > What exactly are you suggesting? IOW, please describe what you have > > > in mind in more detail, because I don't think I understand it. > > > > Specifically, modify the `define-ffi-library' macro that emacs-ffi > > provides. > > > > Presently, it takes two arguments: a SYMBOL and a NAME. I am proposing > > that it be updated to take three arguments: a SYMBOL, a NAME and a > > GPL-COMPATIBLE-P token. A value of `t' would be necessary for creating > > a reference to the library. > > And if the value is not t, then the load will fail? If so, then this > additional argument makes very little sense: you could instead say It makes as much sense as it makes in C library. The token is basically an agreement between Emacs developers and the user not to load (link) closed source libraries into Emacs. > that just by loading the library, the Lisp program which uses > emacs-ffi "declares" the loaded library to be GPL-compatible. And we > are back where we began. Yes, you could. It would just completely remove the barrier. However, the token is an explicit acknowledgment of Emacs policy and license terms, = by the person who loads the library into Emacs. > The way we do it when loading modules requires the _loaded_ library to > declare itself compatible, by exporting a symbol of a certain name. > That is an action by the library we load, not by the Lisp program > which loads it. True. But as you said yourself, a malicious user can easily cicrumvent it, = even in C and there is nothing we can do to prevent them other than possibly tak= ing legal actions against them. If some company or a state would use Emacs or any other GNU program, as a front-end to closed-source software, there is very little one can do technically. It is only the license and the agreement that actually protect= s it. ________________________________ Fr=E5n: Eli Zaretskii Skickat: den 14 augusti 2024 17:31 Till: Suhail Singh Kopia: gerd.moellmann@gmail.com ; nicolas@n16f.ne= t ; arthur.miller@live.com ; emac= s-devel@gnu.org =C4mne: Re: as for Calc and the math library > From: Suhail Singh > Cc: Suhail Singh , gerd.moellmann@gmail.com, > nicolas@n16f.net, arthur.miller@live.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2024 11:08:02 -0400 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > >> On the topic of what would be acceptable for an FFI, wouldn't somethin= g > >> akin to what's done for modules be sufficient ? I.e., have the users = of > >> the interface explicitly state that they are compliant. > >> > >> It would scale better than an allow-list. IIUC, Arthur mentioned this > >> in another thread. If this wouldn't be sufficient for an FFI, could y= ou > >> please elaborate on why that's the case ? > > > > What exactly are you suggesting? IOW, please describe what you have > > in mind in more detail, because I don't think I understand it. > > Specifically, modify the `define-ffi-library' macro that emacs-ffi > provides. > > Presently, it takes two arguments: a SYMBOL and a NAME. I am proposing > that it be updated to take three arguments: a SYMBOL, a NAME and a > GPL-COMPATIBLE-P token. A value of `t' would be necessary for creating > a reference to the library. And if the value is not t, then the load will fail? If so, then this additional argument makes very little sense: you could instead say that just by loading the library, the Lisp program which uses emacs-ffi "declares" the loaded library to be GPL-compatible. And we are back where we began. The way we do it when loading modules requires the _loaded_ library to declare itself compatible, by exporting a symbol of a certain name. That is an action by the library we load, not by the Lisp program which loads it. --_000_DU2PR02MB10109A727479A59356BA7BCB196802DU2PR02MB10109eu_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> >
> > >> On the topic of what would be acceptable for an FFI, wou= ldn't something
> > >> akin to what's done for modules be sufficient ?  I.= e., have the users of
> > >> the interface explicitly state that they are compliant.<= /div>
> > >>
> > >> It would scale better than an allow-list.  IIUC, Ar= thur mentioned this
> > >> in another thread.  If this wouldn't be sufficient = for an FFI, could you
> > >> please elaborate on why that's the case ?
> > >
> > > What exactly are you suggesting?  IOW, please describe = what you have
> > > in mind in more detail, because I don't think I understand i= t.
> >
> > Specifically, modify the `define-ffi-library' macro that emacs-ff= i
> > provides.
> >
> > Presently, it takes two arguments: a SYMBOL and a NAME.  I a= m proposing
> > that it be updated to take three arguments: a SYMBOL, a NAME and = a
> > GPL-COMPATIBLE-P token.  A value of `t' would be necessary f= or creating
> > a reference to the library.
>
> And if the value is not t, then the load will fail?  If so, then = this
> additional argument makes very little sense: you could instead say

It makes as much sense as it makes in C library. The token is basically an<= /div>
agreement between Emacs developers and the user not to load (link) closed
source libraries into Emacs.

> that just by loading the library, the Lisp program which uses
> emacs-ffi "declares" the loaded library to be GPL-compatible= .  And we
> are back where we began.

Yes, you could. It would just completely remove the barrier. However,
the token is an explicit acknowledgment of Emacs policy and license terms, = by
the person who loads the library into Emacs.

> The way we do it when loading modules requires the _loaded_ library to=
> declare itself compatible, by exporting a symbol of a certain name.
> That is an action by the library we load, not by the Lisp program
> which loads it.

True. But as you said yourself, a malicious user can easily cicrumvent it, = even
in C and there is nothing we can do to prevent them other than possibly tak= ing
legal actions against them.

If some company or a state would use Emacs or any other GNU program, as a
front-end to closed-source software, there is very little one can do
technically. It is only the license and the agreement that actually protect= s it.
Fr=E5n: Eli Zaretskii <e= liz@gnu.org>
Skickat: den 14 augusti 2024 17:31
Till: Suhail Singh <suhailsingh247@gmail.com>
Kopia: gerd.moellmann@gmail.com <gerd.moellmann@gmail.com>; ni= colas@n16f.net <nicolas@n16f.net>; arthur.miller@live.com <arthur.= miller@live.com>; emacs-devel@gnu.org <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
=C4mne: Re: as for Calc and the math library
 
> From: Suhail Singh <suhailsingh247@gmail.c= om>
> Cc: Suhail Singh <suhailsingh247@gmail.com>,  gerd.moellman= n@gmail.com,
>  nicolas@n16f.net,  arthur.miller@live.com,  emacs-deve= l@gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2024 11:08:02 -0400
>
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
> >> On the topic of what would be acceptable for an FFI, wouldn't= something
> >> akin to what's done for modules be sufficient ?  I.e., h= ave the users of
> >> the interface explicitly state that they are compliant.
> >>
> >> It would scale better than an allow-list.  IIUC, Arthur = mentioned this
> >> in another thread.  If this wouldn't be sufficient for a= n FFI, could you
> >> please elaborate on why that's the case ?
> >
> > What exactly are you suggesting?  IOW, please describe what = you have
> > in mind in more detail, because I don't think I understand it. >
> Specifically, modify the `define-ffi-library' macro that emacs-ffi
> provides.
>
> Presently, it takes two arguments: a SYMBOL and a NAME.  I am pro= posing
> that it be updated to take three arguments: a SYMBOL, a NAME and a
> GPL-COMPATIBLE-P token.  A value of `t' would be necessary for cr= eating
> a reference to the library.

And if the value is not t, then the load will fail?  If so, then this<= br> additional argument makes very little sense: you could instead say
that just by loading the library, the Lisp program which uses
emacs-ffi "declares" the loaded library to be GPL-compatible.&nbs= p; And we
are back where we began.

The way we do it when loading modules requires the _loaded_ library to
declare itself compatible, by exporting a symbol of a certain name.
That is an action by the library we load, not by the Lisp program
which loads it.
--_000_DU2PR02MB10109A727479A59356BA7BCB196802DU2PR02MB10109eu_--