From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: [External] : Re: Discuss new features/enhancements or large changes for users in emacs-devel [was My resignation from Emacs development] Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2024 21:09:21 +0000 Message-ID: References: <169c6564-4722-4338-a049-5f8f3ce69394@alphapapa.net> <86a5dg7iut.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="31645"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "rms@gnu.org" , "adam@alphapapa.net" , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Nov 30 22:09:54 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1tHUiw-00085e-Fq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 30 Nov 2024 22:09:54 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tHUib-0005xO-CV; Sat, 30 Nov 2024 16:09:33 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tHUiZ-0005xB-FT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 30 Nov 2024 16:09:31 -0500 Original-Received: from mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.177.32]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tHUiY-0003JK-1U; Sat, 30 Nov 2024 16:09:31 -0500 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (m0246630.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com (8.18.1.2/8.18.1.2) with ESMTP id 4AUKeO24006037; Sat, 30 Nov 2024 21:09:25 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=cc :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to; s= corp-2023-11-20; bh=mKikdVc4fp4u7BMNkdcb42neWjpZiA45wx51KhKNXQE=; b= N+E3BT866at+uGAskBPlHFTQt9ACV4f9udO63FXzvFgYjX5LAY0+LhkuF8IlCQ2b 5a7beqE5N6fnl7gkCopNSxZFfKJuIuHGYhgVbcZvVZwlrzViBGhhgqqvHBjBuVZ2 Q7C5Df047y4UbTbXp2eP2s+K4zSzXuF3NeG0lYctTp2RfWoxbLlT9eSNsM3b5jbC BGgYk5XhDbZlnBNWXjrRCOCdCUHI90QzLyQCQ7LXupoOQIhdqTKI2kkaeB5djyQw cEk6BiNiZ+95tPE34RwtkWpkHMWDJrop9qAFqC2xJ+cEb0W5vhnikkSpu2rajUzA xs3fnmYHB8n3m1x+g700Ag== Original-Received: from phxpaimrmta01.imrmtpd1.prodappphxaev1.oraclevcn.com (phxpaimrmta01.appoci.oracle.com [138.1.114.2]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 437s4c0txm-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 30 Nov 2024 21:09:24 +0000 (GMT) Original-Received: from pps.filterd (phxpaimrmta01.imrmtpd1.prodappphxaev1.oraclevcn.com [127.0.0.1]) by phxpaimrmta01.imrmtpd1.prodappphxaev1.oraclevcn.com (8.18.1.2/8.18.1.2) with ESMTP id 4AUI0S5N032829; Sat, 30 Nov 2024 21:09:23 GMT Original-Received: from nam12-mw2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-mw2nam12lp2043.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.66.43]) by phxpaimrmta01.imrmtpd1.prodappphxaev1.oraclevcn.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 437s55949e-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 30 Nov 2024 21:09:23 +0000 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector10001; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=wktXeNDBp79ExbXyLoTID26Pf+8UN7B2hDZJFp4PNJBmI2AG3eKWTb3nfRtN7qL5EAZVOyswGxaF/Le1UN/OM53e43USdcHxx230GGqeYvX8mMi8Vu8Kjb4FBIBl9TV79rH0oJ4MOLsMATx3hmY0OS9y7nEWHaTqmnXQUwvjVJD9ywVFDVv+8hqpgBqHflEqLO2hI068PbkG1rv1rxX7WmhiJDK2Oxi0KeAnYrei/cCqaleJ2mzDtEY31idUz+ddBWQxlSbk4WSRjHrDv2zVEVD16OjKhkewSSYafv24rx7lKLmssqZPr9gRT36G/d4nSBPx9PI88IW6lY1ew77Lww== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector10001; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=mKikdVc4fp4u7BMNkdcb42neWjpZiA45wx51KhKNXQE=; b=pYagEfqFj5R96SRrP4CvJmPR6mzXJbh0djFJ2C6zrfYXeLeakrKK7Zse74ckxnBirEo9398bxI6aW4v2y0e/C5SaTVIX5PksgiJkBG38AmxrpV/017qyftnYhe0RZkwyPlxUKXlegHf/yhycgNHYKIigCQobxXu8R6M1KXcUub7/RBcUgj49MhB+LTpQfgDw7Fby9lhDgeoZ1svX82sZZZzIaC71te83fIRjb2iEoXxzfXrbLA3RswB7hQVCXuOzeO8Cu9ikRIPG3oayPT4C0yO8nif4ybqwo5j6OTsiiOgdYZ+4hXG1v85zy1ztQGJr45rjbRyC0LjaK1/yiELNIg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=oracle.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=oracle.com; dkim=pass header.d=oracle.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-oracle-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=mKikdVc4fp4u7BMNkdcb42neWjpZiA45wx51KhKNXQE=; b=et+JdUo60W6Dbc6MrBEd4PTUgueXzKu4+V4+VodKeAKb3rcbGI7BQqZ3t+CV7giKt7k3hNjGJUE19tNq+/xwCZLzjAWcXZHKQm5Og1eNKgfz0SeSNJh/lOmaFYJV7XVmjvMr3HFesPo701CY2rUeHA0EFaoBd0TmVMfB+GOL9YY= Original-Received: from DS7PR10MB5232.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:5:3aa::24) by BN0PR10MB5016.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:408:12e::13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.8207.17; Sat, 30 Nov 2024 21:09:21 +0000 Original-Received: from DS7PR10MB5232.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::8303:658f:14f8:2324]) by DS7PR10MB5232.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::8303:658f:14f8:2324%5]) with mapi id 15.20.8207.014; Sat, 30 Nov 2024 21:09:21 +0000 Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: Discuss new features/enhancements or large changes for users in emacs-devel [was My resignation from Emacs development] Thread-Index: AQHbQ0ojBKFlq3pN8EGeHhnSKIsqAbLQTDbg In-Reply-To: <86a5dg7iut.fsf@gnu.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DS7PR10MB5232:EE_|BN0PR10MB5016:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 6ef84343-fc1c-4692-679c-08dd118342bf x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; ARA:13230040|1800799024|376014|366016|38070700018; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: =?us-ascii?Q?xk77sXUCjdzn5YvAMbRaXf19FSO9WyyDVqeK9HWIMjxnyeC55LHyREj1kUhC?= =?us-ascii?Q?TZhRGlhM+U9WLa3yk+mqdfAg9egv9/Bxgb8+VFM7MvjOtl1buHS9k4ew2uZE?= =?us-ascii?Q?MQYW6eKfo+YOVOe/gXKQFqjpMB/73jumCrBv0CD/OypiVp11qDwXe7C30kM6?= =?us-ascii?Q?f+alI+YNfiFwAwZhI8+5Ygf4Wa3ocVRQuXVLaWE2NCKS8BehfxTxHaN6tNmI?= =?us-ascii?Q?CD3wTDcGiqPwIHxK8btrtv68lGgvhkiP2IS/l0uUDH2JXeRweNQXRvQHqX2X?= =?us-ascii?Q?A1e9XX/qbEHkWoUsK0zBnJe9tzenWmjtTgq/F1bK+HDH3OUmCqa/qdcdiByY?= =?us-ascii?Q?A2l8gwLHylOsXlllTrcU1aOKDZdNIqM+zOysl1sSDsYiQ7Ydo5WfNxF0MWxq?= =?us-ascii?Q?cAQcFRI58bmowqPVS6BLX3OL0WaQ0iSUp4XYNqmiVeUePVQdAu6DfA5d1wXM?= =?us-ascii?Q?fZlw8aDvw14POWZzcFZRsa9wF0E0fUw9e97MgjHIMDMmIx9WD5c4Np7eSD/N?= =?us-ascii?Q?c9nMZ0zpzxIF4HHdbHLsCqBr1DvIe3T2vhJBG0Ytye9bUjGImVf2XQcdFmnV?= =?us-ascii?Q?cKlFWQrXoc3q3g/wUhMzcyRjM4cJn/MR6m56JX0Cr8LBMGieIcCCIedfT2dC?= =?us-ascii?Q?z4Aru x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DS7PR10MB5232.namprd10.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(13230040)(1800799024)(376014)(366016)(38070700018); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?us-ascii?Q?5oUIVwD3DWTIg9bf5P4EmJYduAwLgbFgTUdOyxFRWUtIU5+WQN7nV3If/c2R?= =?us-ascii?Q?3NTo42MqLjug1JLuRJKZfeGa7EeovqOJz70xoA/fK3l9zTScQVD5494B6Whx?= =?us-ascii?Q?/hZQXMdtYMHRqk1bC/2GTmH9/GB2C2bd39Zs7jtsahs+ftWgHE3d+S2I/rzT?= =?us-ascii?Q?cmO+aV4Qume6R2RUCyEZ+Ql0LL8Uu0u6x5UZ+nne1uQk1zOrD3MpkIuTTj86?= =?us-ascii?Q?oo+WggQ0Fi8Tk+RdfO4u6xFEybVinPGfF2nF9+QFjFbkrjYrxCK86Sc0uwEj?= =?us-ascii?Q?NeGkNAu92dRAPZjVEalvcm9aMHW7W+LTYIImHJNHKxwD3JEORfh2ew3WfLEw?= =?us-ascii?Q?aIgSHQvxvRe+2p7x3KyM33O9KMJ3sW8HONCppJ3tpp9cBI+17cUzMvMsnENb?= =?us-ascii?Q?jt3OyyBIWpL+pBWwcCtH8vVZCC038hOlDH3npaVgAZm+LETPXuo+Z2jxpgmg?= =?us-ascii?Q?0O/gxTopThv63n8832GA127fMf6S7VlbMJoqi81OYiU+ZiFp50tRVbisInS1?= =?us-ascii?Q?KiW3sE8oeamvqeBpY3NFJa3kOWKpfoTp2IFmqKFjvb8mfI+fYnQTLJulu7V+?= =?us-ascii?Q?Kyevq15MDc8Gx0rlzP8YK+WvPI0Bi4X2geThyRywlCz7A2lHcV+YvWpf9Y64?= =?us-ascii?Q?BA X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-0: 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 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DS7PR10MB5232.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 6ef84343-fc1c-4692-679c-08dd118342bf X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Nov 2024 21:09:21.4667 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: yRfsGqQM1OofCBQYeuaUX1tQXIX1yhGvbC0rYAkfVF410WkRSGVGhHKSCsXTwjZK/0Ol1ST7YLFR+toiAWi+ZA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN0PR10MB5016 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.293,Aquarius:18.0.1057,Hydra:6.0.680,FMLib:17.12.68.34 definitions=2024-11-30_17,2024-11-28_01,2024-11-22_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2411120000 definitions=main-2411300180 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: ZWLW4h2UKr9MivWrMSVC7QqNKnG0vPre X-Proofpoint-GUID: ZWLW4h2UKr9MivWrMSVC7QqNKnG0vPre Received-SPF: pass client-ip=205.220.177.32; envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:325893 Archived-At: > > In bug thread 73853 I wrote this about it: > > > > I don't understand why language-design discussions, > > even major ones sometimes, are carried out in > > debbugs and not always in emacs-devel@gnu.org. >=20 > Bug#73853 was not about language-design decisions, it was about > deprecating a macro. The bug might not have been about language-design, but some of the bug thread was - which is the point here. My post that I quoted (above) was a +1 support for a post from Jonas Bernoulli which was largely about the same point being discussed here, now. E.g.: This could have been prevented if more people (including non-debbugs and non-emacs-devel regulars) were given a chance to think about the problem and time to articulate their concerns and proposals, before facts were created. Or even if the people who did take part in past conversations had spend more time actually talking things through. > And you were part of that discussion since its > beginning. Once again, it's not about me. That I was (a small) part of that bug discussion is irrelevant to RMS's point, to which I replied here creating this new thread.