From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Emacs unconditionally loads tramp.el Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 07:18:55 -0700 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1146406816 2074 80.91.229.2 (30 Apr 2006 14:20:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 14:20:16 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Apr 30 16:20:13 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FaCmH-0002NO-TI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 30 Apr 2006 16:20:02 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FaCmH-00035B-8W for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 30 Apr 2006 10:20:01 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FaClM-0002Up-Tq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 30 Apr 2006 10:19:05 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FaClM-0002Tr-7m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 30 Apr 2006 10:19:04 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FaClL-0002Ti-UG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 30 Apr 2006 10:19:03 -0400 Original-Received: from [141.146.126.228] (helo=agminet01.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1FaCox-000204-5K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 30 Apr 2006 10:22:47 -0400 Original-Received: from rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com (rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com [138.1.186.49]) by agminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id k3UEJ2ND009472 for ; Sun, 30 Apr 2006 09:19:02 -0500 Original-Received: from dradamslap (dhcp-amer-whq-csvpn-gw3-141-144-80-31.vpn.oracle.com [141.144.80.31]) by rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with SMTP id k3UEJ1Dx031756 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 30 Apr 2006 08:19:01 -0600 Original-To: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Whitelist: TRUE X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:53657 Archived-At: > Y'know, I don't remember ever doing anything special to get > ange-ftp to work. IIRC, I picked up vanilla Emacs and immediately > accessed remote files. > Maybe I'm forgetting something, but it can't have been too difficult. What you are forgetting is how long it took until ange-ftp began to support Windows seamlessly. At some point, we were even distributing an alternative ftp client, to work around bugs in the Microsoft version. Sounds like a good argument for keeping ange-ftp as the Emacs default, until tramp supports Windows (and other platforms, if appropriate) seamlessly. That was my point. > We're always talking about making things easier for newbies > to use Emacs. Well, if we expect Windows users to pick Emacs up > and use it out of the box, and if we want them to use Emacs to > access remote files, and if tramp is the default way to do that > now, then I suspect we're going to be disappointed in > our expectations. Many Windows users will never experience > using Emacs to access remote files - that's my guess. And > that's too bad - this Emacs feature is much more important than > most of the minutia we spend time discussing in our attempts > to make things friendlier for Emacs newbies > (menus, toolbars, fringe,...). I doubt that many Windows users even consider a prospect of accessing remote files. I think you are wrong about Windows users these days (and perhaps more wrong tomorrow). Did you read the part about developers at large companies having a Windows box in their cubicle and using remote (who knows where?) GNU/Linux boxes for their development? I suspect that is becoming the rule rather than the exception. Gone are the Solaris boxes in people's cubicles. Here to stay, at least for a while, are mega-farms of cheap GNU/Linux boxes/blades. And, at least for now, Windows is the box of choice by companies for inter-office stuff. Perhaps tomorrow Windows will be replaced by GNU/Linux on the desktop as well. Of course, as I mentioned, using a remote GNU/Linux box from Windows does not necessarily mean using Emacs locally and accessing files remotely. Depending on the work one does (within Emacs and without), it can in many cases be more useful to run Emacs remotely (on GNU/Linux), in order to have Linux commands available on the remote machine within Emacs. On the other hand, network bandwidth can sometimes argue against using non-nw Emacs remotely. Different people have different needs in this regard. But that's not an argument to avoid fixing this feature on Windows, it's just that I don't think exaggerating its importance is really required to convince us. Tramp is an important feature to fix, especially if it is to be the default. I don't know if I exaggerate its importance. If it were not the default, so that Emacs 22 acted like 20 and 21 out of the box (ange-ftp), then there would be no problem.