From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: suggestions on toolbar icons Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:33:59 -0800 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1111084684 29325 80.91.229.2 (17 Mar 2005 18:38:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 18:38:04 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Mar 17 19:38:03 2005 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DBzrG-0002YH-1F for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:36:34 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DC07a-000603-Pm for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:53:26 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DC06B-0005kX-AI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:52:00 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DC05x-0005dz-Ie for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:51:47 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DC05x-0005c8-Br for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:51:45 -0500 Original-Received: from [148.87.122.32] (helo=rgminet03.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1DBzpC-0008Ds-6f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:34:26 -0500 Original-Received: from rgminet03.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rgminet03.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.6/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id j2HIYEDe008960 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:34:14 -0500 Original-Received: from rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com [138.1.186.50]) by rgminet03.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.6/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id j2HIY00e008665 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:34:04 -0500 Original-Received: from rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j2HIY0a3009638 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:34:00 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap (dradams-lap.us.oracle.com [130.35.177.126]) by rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with SMTP id j2HIXxqB009633 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:33:59 -0700 Original-To: "Emacs-Devel" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org X-MailScanner-To: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:34674 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:34674 I won't belabor this, but I do have a few responses. Your reply is, in essence, "GNOOOOMMME" (shades of Allen Ginsberg w/ "Oommmm"). If GNOME's choices are not always the best, we will nevertheless live with it. > - Folder (for "file): This is _not_ good. A folder icon is used > ubiquitously for, well, a folder - that is, a directory. You are talking Microsoft products here I guess. This is the Gnome stock open icon, I see no advantage to adopt a different set of guidelines different from Gnome where the folder icon is not at all is ubiquitously used for directory. Check out any Gnome application. > - Directory (Dired): > Suggestion: Use a regular folder icon. Duh? GTK_STOCK_DIRECTORY _is_ a standard folder icon. This _agrees_ with my suggestion (not at all Microsoftesque) that a standard folder icon should be used for Dired. If you think advocating that a folder icon be used to represent a folder editor implies advocating adopting Microsoft conventions, then I would suggest that you are overly zealous in your struggle. Oommmm. Similarly, GTK_STOCK_FILE is a standard file icon. This _agrees_ with my suggestion to keep this icon. The question then is, what about new-file vs existing-file? I suggested using something similar for both of these. GTK_STOCK_NEW is in fact _identical_ to GTK_STOCK_FILE, showing that GNOME and I think alike on this one. Emacs, however, currently uses the _directory_ icon, GTK_STOCK_DIRECTORY for opening an existing file - it happens that this icon is identical to GTK_STOCK_OPEN. Using a folder to represent opening a _file_ flies in the face of every UI I've ever seen. Are you sure that GTK_STOCK_OPEN is intended for files, not for directories? Does using it for opening a file make sense to you? Finally, if you are going to use GNOME as a litmus test, then why not be consistent and use GTK_STOCK_GOTO_TOP instead of GTK_STOCK_HOME for Info's Top? Likewise, why not use GTK_STOCK_GO_BACK for Back (which is, presumably, chronological) - as in Web browsers? Why use the GNOME undo/redo icon (GTK_STOCK_REDO) for Back and Forward? I suspect that we are already departing dangerously from the GNOME Oommmmm. It's a slippery slope... The Gnome stock quit could be used in info to quit, it is an arrow pointing to an open door. Yes, that's better, although the icon is ambiguous (entering or exiting?) and is not very clear (the door is hard to distinguish). I prefer the international exit sign - the one you look for when there's a fire. > - Tooltip for quit/exit: > Suggestion: Use "Quit buffer", or "Delete buffer" instead of > "Discard current buffer". I prefer "Quit buffer". But "Quit Buffer" is not clear, it could mean the same as "Quit Info" i.e. leaving the buffer intact, just switching to another buffer. "Quit" is clearer (and more common) than "discard". At this level, the distinction between leaving the buffer intact and killing it is not important - and "discard" doesn't help with this distinction anyway. The point of stock items is that themes may change them and applications that uses stock items change appearence automatically. I think that Emacs could do better than what is there now, but I do respect that general argument. I wasn't aware of this. Gnome is the GNU desktop environment, so aligning Emacs with Gnome where possible makes sense. It does not make sense to me to change Emacs for the benefit of any other platform. This is not about "any other platform". Aligning Emacs with GNOME is fine, in principle. Recognize, however, that it can also mean a straightjacket at times - Emacs will not be _better_ than whatever GNOME has already defined. Now, if someone would like to make a general solution, like adding the feature that an Emacs user can select from several different icon themes or make his own theme, that would be something. Agreed. If you really want a change to happen it would be more likely if you have made the icons already (both bitmap and pixmap format), and shown us a picture of them in Emacs. Sorry, I'm not an artist or an image guru. I think my descriptions got the point across. It's a moot point anyway, if we are to adhere to the GNOME "standard". I said I wouldn't belabor this, but I did run on a bit. I'll not follow up - do whatever you like. Oommmm. - Drew