From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Q on frame parameters *border-width Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 07:32:06 -0800 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1137864212 13750 80.91.229.2 (21 Jan 2006 17:23:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 17:23:32 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jan 21 18:23:31 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F0MSZ-0003jp-9p for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 18:23:31 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F0MTY-0002FL-5L for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 12:24:32 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F0KoS-0005wu-5Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 10:38:00 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F0Klq-000464-Mn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 10:35:21 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F0KlQ-0003n1-1F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 10:34:52 -0500 Original-Received: from [148.87.122.30] (helo=rgminet01.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.34) id 1F0Kpp-00039x-1s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 10:39:25 -0500 Original-Received: from rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com (rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com [138.1.186.49]) by rgminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.6/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id k0LFW99W028247 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 08:32:10 -0700 Original-Received: from rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id k0LFW9Xt019220 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 08:32:09 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap (dhcp-amer-rmdc-csvpn-gw4-141-144-97-2.vpn.oracle.com [141.144.97.2]) by rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with SMTP id k0LFW88w019208 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 08:32:09 -0700 Original-To: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:49355 Archived-At: > 1. Wrt `border-width': > > When I try this, I get an error, "Cannot change the border width of a > window": > > (modify-frame-parameters (selected-frame) '((border-width . 20))) > > So, think I, perhaps you cannot change this parameter for an existing frame, > but perhaps you can set it for `default-frame-alist' and it will then affect > future frames. No such luck either. In fact, you cannot change this for _any_ window. At least on X, I think this parameter is under control of the window manager. But even if I'm wrong, it looks like no one has written code to handle this, on any windowing system. Are you saying that X sets it, so you can at least read it (on X)? If so, that should be documented: it is a read-only parameter that is set by (some? all? only X?) window managers. > Both the doc string and the error message speak of the "window" border, so I > guess this is a frame parameter that affects the border of each window in > the frame. Is that right? Just where is the window border? I don't know how to explain this better than the manual does. Each frame has a border--do you know what that border is? If not, perhaps your problem is not what border-width is, but what is the border. You are speaking of a frame border; the doc speaks of a window border. With typical X window managers this border is clearly visible, because it has a 3D appearance that makes it stand out. On MS-Windows, this is less visible, but you should still be able to see a narrow 2-pixel-wide strip between the outer edge of the Emacs frame and the parts of the frame that Emacs displays: the fringe at the left side, the title bar's background color on the top side, etc. Again, you're speaking of the frame border. In that case, the doc shouldn't mention "window" - or else it should say "window-manager window (frame)". > If not, if it is about a frame border, then the doc string and error > message should say "frame", not "window". Maybe, I don't know. The confusion between ``window'' and ``frame'' is not a simple one. The parameter is for frames, not for windows. If it is a frame parameter that is about a frame, not a window, border, then why mention "window" at all? Why is this not simple? > What does this parameter do? Setting it doesn't seem to do anything, on > Windows XP at least (Emacs 20 or 22). Shouldn't the doc explain the > parameter a little more? I think this parameter exists so that one could compute the actual size of the frame. OK. That's reasonable. It would be good to say that 1) the parameter is read-only, 2) it is not (or might not be) set by window managers other than X Window, and 3) it is useful for calculating the total frame size, in pixels. > 2. Wrt `internal-border-width': > > The only difference in this parameter's name and that of the previous > parameter is "internal-". Does this mean that this too applies to Emacs > window borders (whatever they are) and not to frame borders? No, the manual says it explicitly: this is the distance between the border and the text area of the Emacs display. Sure it does. My point here was about the _name_. Anyway, the point is meaningless now, since you've confirmed that `border-width' is also about the frame border, not an Emacs window border. > Setting `internal-border-width' actually does change something, but it > appears to be the internal _frame_ border, not a border around each window. It _is_ the frame border. Yes, see above. > The `internal-border-width' does not appear to be the distance between text > and border, if the border when fringe is present - in that case, it is the > distance between the fringe and the border. Yes. So, perhaps this could be stated explicitly in the doc.