From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: File menu changes (suggestions) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:53:13 -0700 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1119286726 6690 80.91.229.2 (20 Jun 2005 16:58:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:58:46 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jun 20 18:58:41 2005 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DkPaX-00081b-DM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:57:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DkPgn-0007qq-9a for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:04:01 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DkPeW-00079g-Qj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:01:41 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DkPeM-00074o-5u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:01:30 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DkPeL-00071H-W9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:01:30 -0400 Original-Received: from [141.146.126.230] (helo=agminet03.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.34) id 1DkPZ2-00021q-Vq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:56:01 -0400 Original-Received: from agminet03.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by agminet03.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id j5KGrEpq018477 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:53:14 -0500 Original-Received: from rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com (rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com [138.1.186.49]) by agminet03.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id j5KGrEJv018452 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:53:14 -0500 Original-Received: from rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j5KGrDS4012295 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:53:14 -0600 Original-Received: from dradamslap (dradams-lap.us.oracle.com [130.35.177.126]) by rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with SMTP id j5KGrDYN012287 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:53:13 -0600 Original-To: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Importance: Normal X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:39182 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:39182 We refer to the buffer on purpose: we want users to see Emacs terminology even in the menus, and even when the menus are following established UI guidelines and use standard entries like "New" and "Close". Why then do we use Paste instead of Yank? Menu-item names can serve as a bridge between terms that newbies are used to and Emacs terminology. Users can find operations they are familiar with in the menus, and gradually learn the associated commands, which can have very different names. It doesn't help if we use common terminology in uncommon ways - see "New" below. > a. Currently, there is an inconsistency wrt "Buffer" and "(current buffer)". That's not an inconsistency: in the first case, "Buffer" is part of the command name; in the second, it's a minor comment about the command's operation. 1. "Save Buffer As" runs command `write-file'. Where's the beef - er - "buffer"? 2. "Save (current buffer)" runs command `save-buffer'. 3. "Close (current buffer)" runs command `kill-this-buffer'. 4. "Revert Buffer" runs command `revert-buffer'. - 1,2 & 3 seem opposite of the convention you say is behind the names. 4 confirms your rule, as do the "* Print Buffer" items. Not much of a rule (explanation). - The command name is irrelevant here. Again: `yank'. - A minor comment about a command's operation belongs perhaps in a tooltip or help, but not in the name of the menu item itself. > New is better than New File (but see 3, below). No, it is not better, since it doesn't say what new entity is created. Other GUI programs have a submenu there or work only with one type of entities (or just leave it vague, which we didn't want to do). So "New File" says that a new file is created? Yes, it says that, but it tells not the truth: no file is created by this operation. > 3. WRT 2b, it is true that the file or buffer opened need not in fact be > new, so even "New" is misleading. The problem arises because we need a name > to distinguish open-new-or-existing-buffer-for-new-or-existing-file from > Open File (existing file only). A better name for New would be just "Open". "New" is a standard entry in the "File" menu, so I don't think renaming it to (a non-standard) "Open" is a good idea. The name "New" is standard, but our meaning/use of that name is not so standard. "New" in many (most?) applications (e.g. Word and Windows Explorer are common ones) will not let you open an existing document. Our "Open" can do two things: 1) create new, 2) open existing. However, "Open Directory" does not create a new directory. That too is a place where we might consider either renaming the item or extending command `dired' to incorporate the behavior of `dired-create-directory'. > 4. A better name for Revert is Reopen. Do you know of any other GUI applications that have such a menu entry? I have seen "Revert to Saved", which is also clearer than "Revert" (and "Revert Buffer"). My knowledge is limited - you might be right; "Reopen" seems clearer to me, though. "Reload", which David mentioned, is also clearer (though it also suggests Columbine or Grand Theft Auto). Web browsers often use "Refresh" (in the View menu) for reloading a page (although the "reloading" often uses the cache, by default). > 5. Move all of the window and frame stuff to a new menu, "Frames". Not good: we have a crammed menu bar already, adding more top-level items would only make things worse with no real advantage. Agreed. But 1) this stuff has little to do with "File"; 2) use of a "Windows" menu, having a similar purpose, is common in other apps; 3) I think it is likely that we will have more frame and window commands to add to a Frames menu in the future. Again, I didn't expect that much of what I threw out would be agreed upon, especially in the immediate. I do think we might agree to rename a few of the items for this release. I'm thinking, for instance, of "Unsplit Windows". Another possible renaming I forgot to mention is "Split Window". The window is not split to result in a single window with a divider. "New Window" would be a better name for this menu item.