From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: theming Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:36:10 -0700 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1120758450 8789 80.91.229.2 (7 Jul 2005 17:47:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:47:30 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jul 07 19:47:22 2005 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DqaRv-0007az-DL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 19:46:11 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DqaTI-0005tz-HR for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 13:47:36 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DqaQw-0005Kb-Ge for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 13:45:12 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DqaQp-0005EU-CL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 13:45:04 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DqaQi-00059V-2t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 13:44:56 -0400 Original-Received: from [141.146.126.230] (helo=agminet03.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.34) id 1DqaOn-0000A4-7F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 13:42:57 -0400 Original-Received: from agminet03.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by agminet03.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id j67HaCU2002214 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:36:12 -0500 Original-Received: from rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com [138.1.186.50]) by agminet03.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id j67HaBRd002192 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:36:12 -0500 Original-Received: from rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j67HaBxM029894 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:36:11 -0600 Original-Received: from dradamslap (dradams-lap.us.oracle.com [130.35.177.126]) by rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with SMTP id j67HaAkh029889 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:36:10 -0600 Original-To: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Importance: Normal X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:40572 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:40572 Much as I like the idea of prepackaged distributions for normal, non-developer users, the problem I see with many "big" Emacs projects (like TinyTools, CEDET, JDEE, etc) is that they are much of an all-or-nothing. You install one of them, you are no longer in Emacs, but someone's pet idea of what Emacs should look like (yeah, even if they have a ton or two of customization options). Nothing bat per se, but I already have my pet Emacs and we've learnt to live with each other, thanks ;-) Being themeable is necessary. Being non-monolithic is fundamental I agree 100%. This is something that would really, really help Emacs - well after the release. I'm guilty, myself, of having come up with such monolithic customization packages (with and without using "Custom"). I try to update those libraries now (when I have time), so that the result is less monolithic and plays better with, for instance, Custom. (One problem is, I think, that there is a natural evolution from a set of individual .emacs settings toward a library that others can use flexibly. I've mentioned this before. A set of guidelines for moving from the one to the other would help.) Anyway, I think that a general mechanism for themes that also promotes modularity (vs monoliths) would be a great thing to have. The current Custom facility is essentially geared toward the individual user (it updates his custom-file), whereas what we're talking about here are packages that customize a lot of things at once for any set of users. And people are right to point out that "the solution" should speak not only to Customization stuff (variables & faces), but to key bindings too. And it might need to provide for loading and unloading redefinitions of standard functions, as well as dealing with advice flexibly. I don't think the task would be easy to come up with a good, general set of theming constructs that would let people write modular, non-monolithic custom versions of Emacs. But it would be great if it existed.