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Subject: Re: Propose to add setup-wizard.el to ELPA
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 09:18:13 -0800
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> On Jan 2, 2022, at 1:41 AM, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote:
>=20
> Yuan Fu <casouri@gmail.com> writes:
>=20
>> My point is that all configurations would be in one commented block =
of
>> code, instead of separated into different places.
>=20
> So you can place `global-set-key' and `setq' in a single form, and =
also
> have it come out meaningfully?
>=20
> Otherwise, I don't understand what you mean by "block".

As in

;; xxx
(Setq xxx xxx)
;; xxx
(Global-set-key xxx xxx)
...

>=20
>> Maybe that=E2=80=99s true for some users. I had my fair share of =
struggle and
>> confusion with custom when I started using Emacs. IME a few lines of
>> setq, global-set-key and xxx-mode are simpler and more predicable =
than
>> custom.
>=20
> I think the problem with people finding custom confusing is that they
> tend to blindly paste code from other people's configurations, and =
that
> code tends to not work well with custom.  There is no reason to worsen
> that problem by providing a setup wizard which doesn't work with =
custom.
>=20
>> Neither of us has surveyed enough number of new Emacs users, so I
>> don=E2=80=99t think we can make definitive claims.  For example, I =
don=E2=80=99t think
>> it is unacceptable to expect a user to understand what does setq,
>> global-set-key or xxx-mode means.
>=20
> You don't need to survey anyone to come to such a conclusion.  Just =
ask
> yourself this: do users of CLion have to know Java?  If not, then =
users
> of Emacs shouldn't have to learn Emacs Lisp either.
>=20
> Especially people who have zero hours of previous experience working
> with Emacs.
>=20
>> It is hard for the user to find them. Plus other problems with custom
>> and Customize described above that you don=E2=80=99t seem to mind. =
Aren=E2=80=99t they
>> confusing for even a not-so-new user? They surely confused and =
annoyed
>> me for a long time back then.
>=20
> Easy Customization is documented in the manual, it is in the menu bar,
> and there is a link in the splash screen.
>=20
> If it's confusing to new users, I think it should be fixed.

Customize and custom are not very confusing if one only uses Customize =
and doesn=E2=80=99t care how it works. It is confusing if one starts to =
also write some code in init.el and see some unexpected results.

If setup-wizard does not generate some code to insert but rather =
silently changes and save settings behind, I would be very confusing =
(about how and why thing happen in the way they are). But that=E2=80=99s =
me, maybe a beginner is totally fine with magic. I won=E2=80=99t argue =
with that.

My objective complaint is that I would need to insert keybinding =
configurations as code into init.el and the rest into custom. And they =
are separate and confusing for a user to modify/remove. Also code is =
more straightforward and simple. I can just delete them and their effect =
is gone, but not so much with custom. You need to navigate the Customize =
interface.

Yuan=