From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Yuan Fu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Propose to add setup-wizard.el to ELPA Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 09:18:13 -0800 Message-ID: References: <897ED591-43BC-4029-912A-917E5E9F6930@gmail.com> <87czlarhff.fsf@yahoo.com> <5D13C3C0-C4EB-4769-9685-25122DC9B8DC@gmail.com> <875yr2rfd1.fsf@yahoo.com> <369E183D-87EC-45AB-8352-9A780006561E@gmail.com> <87zgoeps3f.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zgoeo91m.fsf@yahoo.com> <87ilv2o4p3.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="4908"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Emacs developers To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jan 02 18:20:00 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1n44WV-00014H-Gd for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 18:19:59 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53648 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n44WU-00055B-Cd for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 12:19:58 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:40592) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n44Us-00033w-8C for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 12:18:18 -0500 Original-Received: from [2607:f8b0:4864:20::636] (port=46672 helo=mail-pl1-x636.google.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n44Uq-0000yk-LP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 12:18:17 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pl1-x636.google.com with SMTP id w7so22933836plp.13 for ; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 09:18:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=hRF3pHg3mgzYLJ2gP/fSKZlDWUAxlGunCdWAVvyGjQo=; b=cKUjvpCEdwW5zuC4gxQBNJaWGMprj5Cky1t3UTNOI15qvYc0YeOerO+QtfOKsIzzkl snT7Ka89lelmI860WMV4snipIFCQz/xTCJP2ap+cl7PYjoZqXkJTvyseEN+N3+Tthw1V bSI90pvurp3pV596iksnO5YQAvo0R8W8/MXuE21XuN3koFo5Mv/MjYGXdzVFImn/cr/Y w2QaaXmY64SKvDOCdWSunqoVYa7ayWBKydkdzKD8vV+CYCeJuCgFJKppLHc1bvQzU9IG LH9UDD3Hitb2D8mQBLi+pAFADgJM703t6dWiGGj8CzD8VuxN1SpNVFNAhCl3MzEWlQFj /2sQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=hRF3pHg3mgzYLJ2gP/fSKZlDWUAxlGunCdWAVvyGjQo=; b=iSm4vVGFFjSAxQDv1+36G7UHTcbRvXhiBpxdfZ+XBPdD6fjswxG9Y8HbWF6g0gPFo5 ye7BfI9ho++B3x2qhmNnkF7mj6j/rBmJ3NQ7jo9hMuqDM4ZOlU+4Zm3vH7U7Mi5uP4yo z5qPG4RwcMC1CG7nlmnRZu/Sv7zOWbvmKGzfEMN05V/SDaE0GmCHQO513M9jcgopIDfq 0XjRca5H+7ZmL15n0X/tGWajCrTUxqRxj658QDlLPMCG+tSk6XFm7M6h2HEzhyo/pu1P FsgbDGCnXen+UiWqj7QxI8y+ffJxfVNVjOX/yXeE86uA6lCZOaqdyl4k+3gxigs3kyPV iZcg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531JwZC2adCAQ9uN3prBmhlDOowf+T9yZOc/Sh8uSUCGur9cmKid +TjeN5xZEm9rWI5R4qjYqTFM6BzQZaA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzTgbljLOTr7oup0S7sC/g8Yt7+wuJbAxfW8BFxdbaiwnLfR+JmmRztTzppeF+LnKw3tidxmQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:a6d:: with SMTP id o100mr52752536pjo.179.1641143895286; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 09:18:15 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2600:1700:2ec7:8c90:a095:5ec2:29e1:ba48]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id qe14sm31297322pjb.44.2022.01.02.09.18.14 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 02 Jan 2022 09:18:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87ilv2o4p3.fsf@yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2607:f8b0:4864:20::636 (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::636; envelope-from=casouri@gmail.com; helo=mail-pl1-x636.google.com X-Spam_score_int: 6 X-Spam_score: 0.6 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.6 / 5.0 requ) DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:283933 Archived-At: > On Jan 2, 2022, at 1:41 AM, Po Lu wrote: >=20 > Yuan Fu writes: >=20 >> My point is that all configurations would be in one commented block = of >> code, instead of separated into different places. >=20 > So you can place `global-set-key' and `setq' in a single form, and = also > have it come out meaningfully? >=20 > Otherwise, I don't understand what you mean by "block". As in ;; xxx (Setq xxx xxx) ;; xxx (Global-set-key xxx xxx) ... >=20 >> Maybe that=E2=80=99s true for some users. I had my fair share of = struggle and >> confusion with custom when I started using Emacs. IME a few lines of >> setq, global-set-key and xxx-mode are simpler and more predicable = than >> custom. >=20 > I think the problem with people finding custom confusing is that they > tend to blindly paste code from other people's configurations, and = that > code tends to not work well with custom. There is no reason to worsen > that problem by providing a setup wizard which doesn't work with = custom. >=20 >> Neither of us has surveyed enough number of new Emacs users, so I >> don=E2=80=99t think we can make definitive claims. For example, I = don=E2=80=99t think >> it is unacceptable to expect a user to understand what does setq, >> global-set-key or xxx-mode means. >=20 > You don't need to survey anyone to come to such a conclusion. Just = ask > yourself this: do users of CLion have to know Java? If not, then = users > of Emacs shouldn't have to learn Emacs Lisp either. >=20 > Especially people who have zero hours of previous experience working > with Emacs. >=20 >> It is hard for the user to find them. Plus other problems with custom >> and Customize described above that you don=E2=80=99t seem to mind. = Aren=E2=80=99t they >> confusing for even a not-so-new user? They surely confused and = annoyed >> me for a long time back then. >=20 > Easy Customization is documented in the manual, it is in the menu bar, > and there is a link in the splash screen. >=20 > If it's confusing to new users, I think it should be fixed. Customize and custom are not very confusing if one only uses Customize = and doesn=E2=80=99t care how it works. It is confusing if one starts to = also write some code in init.el and see some unexpected results. If setup-wizard does not generate some code to insert but rather = silently changes and save settings behind, I would be very confusing = (about how and why thing happen in the way they are). But that=E2=80=99s = me, maybe a beginner is totally fine with magic. I won=E2=80=99t argue = with that. My objective complaint is that I would need to insert keybinding = configurations as code into init.el and the rest into custom. And they = are separate and confusing for a user to modify/remove. Also code is = more straightforward and simple. I can just delete them and their effect = is gone, but not so much with custom. You need to navigate the Customize = interface. Yuan=