From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?B?7KGw7ISx67mI?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Imports / inclusion of s.el into Emacs Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 00:29:30 +0900 Message-ID: References: <0c88192c-3c33-46ed-95cb-b4c6928016e3@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="18299"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Stefan Monnier , Stefan Kangas , Emacs developers , =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= , Dmitry Gutov , Eli Zaretskii , drew.adams@oracle.com To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu May 07 17:30:47 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jWiU2-0004dZ-Ql for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 07 May 2020 17:30:46 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:48262 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWiU1-0001Zx-M1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 07 May 2020 11:30:45 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56608) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWiSz-0008CM-A3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2020 11:29:41 -0400 Original-Received: from pv50p00im-ztdg10021201.me.com ([17.58.6.45]:42030) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWiSx-0005zP-VO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2020 11:29:40 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=icloud.com; s=1a1hai; t=1588865378; bh=+UiLm0IYEdP2+RUgCNT47eL1hcU3oHaUgvBaZOfO8Xc=; h=Content-Type:Subject:From:Date:Message-Id:To; b=R7gJdJl+maeLMkI4ihMLLseD2CYtSKLpU/rF4X1N8SvBIzCWfkIe34yTEMaPGeVhv avyN0zTkxcCcG/pQDiLrSPuA0kUs/nhvCyKeqNNwWJiEDLiaDO/tm6a5xkGHUsLnmc h32dmjDmDUf8+AQub5Eixk2e3Nlx7RXJwEd4BbTB2yQVQWbY61YOoy91XQSkHmhsjM pCMvNZwTYoqgFl1iUYaUhAM9JwobdWy5s+erUCnkkTwb2D+UMoOe4bpGHgfC4DCRWs kikwXCaO25gFbm4h7/em5rZ8cemsJNkR9ER8w8VRiZd0Yxyk9tIIqD2Z2x9lSHE/Ih 8d7fThyZiglHg== Original-Received: from [192.168.0.3] (unknown [1.230.108.64]) by pv50p00im-ztdg10021201.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BF143A40749; Thu, 7 May 2020 15:29:35 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.216, 18.0.676 definitions=2020-05-07_10:2020-05-07, 2020-05-07 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=529 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-2002250000 definitions=main-2005070125 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=17.58.6.45; envelope-from=pcr910303@icloud.com; helo=pv50p00im-ztdg10021201.me.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/07 11:29:38 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979, KHOP_DYNAMIC=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:249186 Archived-At: Richard Stallman 작성: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > >> I have the impression that you don't live in the same universe as mine: > > If your universe is limited to Emacs Lisp packages outside Emacs, then > indeed I am living outside your universe. I never come in contact > with them. If you would like me to know about those, how about telling > me from time to time? > >> in my world, `s.el` is already used by the majority of new packages even > > If that is so, it is quite unfortunate. But things could get worse: > we could include s.el in GNU ELPA, or even in Emacs itself, and thus > spread its influence even wider. You know what? By these explicit decisions, ELPA is close to useless in the Emacs community, MELPA is the biggest repo, and since MELPA isn’t ELPA, it already has proprietary packages that a lot of people rely and use. I personally dislike all of that free software movement, but by alienating 99% of Emacs users for the sake of elisp purity (which frankly doesn’t make sense at all, I didn’t try to use strong words in the previous discussions but Elisp’s API naming is just such a terrible mess and has zero consistency, some new package that at least has some internal consistency doesn’t make it worse) will push people to use MELPA much more, and people will find it much easier to install proprietary Emacs plugins. I’m pretty sure you would hate that? (For an example, check out the https://github.com/TommyX12/company-tabnine plugin that works with the tabnine GPT code completer that’s proprietary, which I already know quite a few people use it.) > We could tell ourselves that this was merely an extension users could > use or not. But that would be closing our eyes to the situation. > > For instance, people would complain that these "essential facilities > that so many packages use" were not in the Emacs Lisp Reference > Manual. That looks like a valid complaint, it’s just that essential facilities aren’t in Emacs, not Eintr. > They would demand that we give priority to the usual > Clojure-based names No, people will demand names with consistency, not Clojure-based names. And the only reason s.el used the Clojure API as a base is that they actually consider the users and design a proper API, they do not say that you can look names up on the manuals. > and relegate the "irregular" 'concat' and 'format' > to an appendix. > > If we did not comply, they would bombard us with verbal aggressions > such as, "We are the majority, what universe are you in?" That’s quite true, I can guarantee that 99% of Emacs users don’t know what mailing lists are, why there are crazy names like assq, and just think that Emacs has this crazy API just because some old timers designed it. Emacs package developers find the API strange and make packages like s.el, a usual Emacs user gets alienated with the API. People are already in a different universe with emacs-devel. And this whole discussion was about trying to merge them, and everybody is like one can use C-h a, C-h d, and that’s how lisp works. > Likewise if we defined other Emacs Lisp functions with names starting > with 'string-', departing from Clojure's spec, they would accuse us of > risking a name conflict with future Clojure extensions. > > Rather than let that happen, we should say no at the outset. > > However, a small change would avoid these problems. We could rename > the file to clostring.el and rename the functions to start with clo > also: clostring-prepend, clostring-format, etc. > > This file would do the same job as s.el, but including it in GNU ELPA > or in Emacs itself would not have the negative effects I described > above. It would truly be simply an extension that programmers could > use or not. There would be no reason not to include it. > > -- > Dr Richard Stallman > Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) > Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) > Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)